Recently got the Saucony Endorphin Speed 4 - have run in 1,2,3 Speeds in the past and 2 Pros and have been impressed in the past by how fast and nimble these shoes were. In particular, the Speed1 and Speed2 were essentially identical in pace for me compared to the more expensive pros, which was noted on the interwebz as well by several reviewers. I could feel the stiffer carbon plate in the pros, but it didn’t seem to make a difference in my speed. Like some reviewers, I think my favorite of them all was the Speed1 with its nylon plate.
The new Speed4 in comparison has definitely been nerfed. It’s heavier, slower, and less nimble than the other versions. I saw on some reviewers online that it’s likely an attempt by Saucony to better differentiate the pro vs the cheaper speed, and in that regard, they’ve accomplished it, but the Speed4 feels like a different shoe now - more of a stable daily trainer that I wouldn’t bust out on speed or race days, as opposed to a daily trainer that was definitely fast enough to run fast in and race in.
The cushioning is good, but the energy return isn’t there anymore. It’s wayyy slower and less energy return than the Alphafly1,2 - where in my speed tests of prior shoes, Saucony Speed1s were hard to differentiate speedwise from my Alphafly1 (AF1 was faster, but I’d really have to push it. Now, compared to Speed4, it’s glaring obvious in pace as well as feel, at any speed.)
Anyway, if you’re looking for the magic of the Speed1-3 in the Speed4, look elsewhere, as it’s a different shoe now. Not a bad one, but just more of a hum-ho slower paced daily trainer. I’d say it even compares with my ‘maxi’ shoes in terms of agility and pace now, and is no longer remotely in the class of racing-speed shoes.
Loved the Speed 1&2, best all around trainer for me ever. Bought the 3&4 but never even ran in them, tried them on and instantly hated them. Replaced them with Brooks Hyperion Max since I exhausted my supply of 2’s. Might try the new Pegasus 41 since they’ve add ZoomX foam. Used to love the Pegs but stopped at 37 when started in the Speeds and Air Zoom Tempo Next.
Hmm we’ve not had anyone saying that it’s slower or less energy return. Of course with shoes ymmv. We probably sell 10 pair per week.
I don’t think people should expect a shoe to be the same/feel the same from one season to the next. Ever season is a N=1 if it’s going to work for you or not.
The companies often try to carry things over model year to model year. Some updates are cosmetic and some are more substantial/drastic.
Hmm we’ve not had anyone saying that it’s slower or less energy return. Of course with shoes ymmv. We probably sell 10 pair per week.
I don’t think people should expect a shoe to be the same/feel the same from one season to the next. Ever season is a N=1 if it’s going to work for you or not.
The companies often try to carry things over model year to model year. Some updates are cosmetic and some are more substantial/drastic.
Bummer it’s not working for you
I suspect a lot of the folks buying these shoes haven’t A:B tested them against the Nike AF like I have (my gold standard).
Speed 1,2 and pro 1-3 all held their own again the AF for me - almost, but not quite equal, but fast enough I wouldn’t be losing any races because of the few second differential.
Speed4s are like wayyyy slower against the AF. It’s not even close - and you can instantly feel the lack of energy return with every step - I even thought “these shoes are broken!” the first time I put on the Speed4s, but I racked it up to being spoiled silly by the AFs, but now after 140ish miles on the Speed4s, they still feel like a maxi-type clunker shoe. And the Nike AF1 I’m using has 500+ miles on it (it’s still super fast though, even if totally beat up on the upper. I’d still race this 500 mile AF any day, but I have a newer AF2 that runs the same speed for me.)
For my n=1, I’m not even exaggerating that for me, my speeds in a Endorphin4 at all workouts, be it slower, fast intervals, or tempo, are equivalent to running in a maxi shoe like the Brooks Glycerin or Saucony Triumph last-gen.
I don’t think people should expect a shoe to be the same/feel the same from one season to the next. Ever season is a N=1 if it’s going to work for you or not.
It would be awesome if manufacturers wouldn’t change them year to year. Endorphin Speed 1 was an absolute beast of a responsive training shoe, and one of their bestsellers, why not just keep it the same? I might try the 4 but would rather just get a fresh pair of the 1. The pro 3 did not feel good on my feet while the 1 was my go to race shoe a few years ago.
Manufacturers need to push out something new and the same design in a new color year after year sees sales decline. New model, new boost.
How about claiming the new version of the shoe is faster, lighter, better materials, etc. but basically keep the same design the same and just change the colours a bit
FWIW, the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4 has been reviewed to be ‘softer’ and less ‘racy’ than previous versions. Based on that, I replaced my SEP1 with a SEP3. Saucony has confused their shoe lineup with the Endorphin Elite now the old Endorphin Pro and the Kinvara Pro the new Endorphin Speed (but not exactly). Raced this weekend in the SEP3 and they seem as fast as the SEP1, but, curiously, my feet are more beat up despite the SEP3 being softer feeling than the SEP1.
How about claiming the new version of the shoe is faster, lighter, better materials, etc. but basically keep the same design the same and just change the colours a bit
Most years you just get a colorway change, an outsole pattern change, maybe the uppers are cut somewhat differently, or the tongue had been redesigned, or a small foam change like Asics has gone from FF blast to FF Blast +
Then some years you may get a larger change. For instance Brooks, in the Ghost 16 went to DNA Loft 3 foam and changed the upper a bit from the 15 changing how the shoe feels a lot.
A few shoes are on a two year cycle, the Brooks Beast comes to mind as one of those. NB did this with a few shoes iirc
This year the Endorphin Speed 4 got a winged plate, there was some change to the foam, the durometer is lower. I think there was another change but don’t remember the specific changes
I’d also say that why lightheir found them to be slower ymmv in the shoes and you may find them faster or the same or slower.
How about claiming the new version of the shoe is faster, lighter, better materials, etc. but basically keep the same design the same and just change the colours a bit
Most years you just get a colorway change, an outsole pattern change, maybe the uppers are cut somewhat differently, or the tongue had been redesigned, or a small foam change like Asics has gone from FF blast to FF Blast +
Then some years you may get a larger change. For instance Brooks, in the Ghost 16 went to DNA Loft 3 foam and changed the upper a bit from the 15 changing how the shoe feels a lot.
A few shoes are on a two year cycle, the Brooks Beast comes to mind as one of those. NB did this with a few shoes iirc
This year the Endorphin Speed 4 got a winged plate, there was some change to the foam, the durometer is lower. I think there was another change but don’t remember the specific changes
I’d also say that why lightheir found them to be slower ymmv in the shoes and you may find them faster or the same or slower.
Shoes just can be so odd, a bunch of shoetubers saying that Endorphin Speed 4 could be their shoe of the year.
I have been using the Hyperion Max recently. It’s a good shoe and you can get them on sale now as well. I am interested to see the new plate version coming out.
Speed 3s were okay. Fit was a touch too loose in the mid foot although I liked the slightly bigger toe box.
I suspect a lot of the folks buying these shoes haven’t A:B tested them against the Nike AF like I have (my gold standard).
Speed 1,2 and pro 1-3 all held their own again the AF for me - almost, but not quite equal, but fast enough I wouldn’t be losing any races because of the few second differential.
Speed4s are like wayyyy slower against the AF. It’s not even close - and you can instantly feel the lack of energy return with every step - I even thought “these shoes are broken!” the first time I put on the Speed4s, but I racked it up to being spoiled silly by the AFs, but now after 140ish miles on the Speed4s, they still feel like a maxi-type clunker shoe. And the Nike AF1 I’m using has 500+ miles on it (it’s still super fast though, even if totally beat up on the upper. I’d still race this 500 mile AF any day, but I have a newer AF2 that runs the same speed for me.)
For my n=1, I’m not even exaggerating that for me, my speeds in a Endorphin4 at all workouts, be it slower, fast intervals, or tempo, are equivalent to running in a maxi shoe like the Brooks Glycerin or Saucony Triumph last-gen.
I’ve run extensively in each model of Speed. The 4 does not feel nerf’d compared to the 3.
ETA - I don’t understand why you’re comparing those shoes to the AlphaFlys.
I love the Speeds. Ive also used every version and the newest 4s are different and feel like they are equally as fast as every version before. I wasnt a fan of 1-2s bottoms, they were still fast, but the 3 and 4s have felt like a trainer feel but good stiffness and speed/energy return from them.
Regardless, I think the Speed is such an under rated shoe.
I suspect a lot of the folks buying these shoes haven’t A:B tested them against the Nike AF like I have (my gold standard).
Speed 1,2 and pro 1-3 all held their own again the AF for me - almost, but not quite equal, but fast enough I wouldn’t be losing any races because of the few second differential.
Speed4s are like wayyyy slower against the AF. It’s not even close - and you can instantly feel the lack of energy return with every step - I even thought “these shoes are broken!” the first time I put on the Speed4s, but I racked it up to being spoiled silly by the AFs, but now after 140ish miles on the Speed4s, they still feel like a maxi-type clunker shoe. And the Nike AF1 I’m using has 500+ miles on it (it’s still super fast though, even if totally beat up on the upper. I’d still race this 500 mile AF any day, but I have a newer AF2 that runs the same speed for me.)
For my n=1, I’m not even exaggerating that for me, my speeds in a Endorphin4 at all workouts, be it slower, fast intervals, or tempo, are equivalent to running in a maxi shoe like the Brooks Glycerin or Saucony Triumph last-gen.
I’ve run extensively in each model of Speed. The 4 does not feel nerf’d compared to the 3.
ETA - I don’t understand why you’re comparing those shoes to the AlphaFlys.
Agreed. One can’t compare Nylon plate to Carbon Plate. Obviously one will have more energy return. Bad comparison for sure. 4 is also lighter and transition from mid foot a bit more moderate. If I had one shoe to pick for every single run, it would most definitely be the Speed 4.
