Runtraining3 - Long Runs (fast or slow?)

Triathlon Forum
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The Khannouchi Paradox: Long runs are suppsoed to be slow, but he runs them fast and breaks world records.

I’ve read many articles on this subject (most notably one from Pfitzinger in Running Times) and have disussed the issue with a few coaches and competetive distance runners. It was been a long held belief that long runs should be done at 65 - 80% of maxHR pace to efficiently stimulate aerobic development with minimal stress on the body.

However, some of you may have noticed that Khannouchi, one of the greatest marathoners who has ever lived, doen’t seem to follow this mantra. He runs much of his long run at close to marathon pace and even finishes them off at much faster than marathon pace. This seems to fly in the face of conventional training regimens.

I had intended on going a little more in depth into this subject, but as I did a little research to get my facts straight, I came across a nice article that does a really nice job explaining the concept of the faster long run. To continue would become nothing short of plagarism on my part.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,ss6-238-244--10912-3-1X2-3,00.html

The only additions I’ll make is to always keep in mind what the focus of your workout is. For most triathletes, a 20 mile run with 10 of it a MP will be counter productive, much like a Khannouchi long run would be for us mere mortals. They’re often too stressfull and require too much recovery time. However, a 14 miler with the last 4 at MP might be realistic. However, you might be running that in place of an 18 mile easy run. Based on your level of fitness and you racing goals, you will need to determine for yourself which is more important for you on a given weekend and what you think your body is going to respond to more at the time.

Much like The Zatopek Paradox where I suggested examining phenoms of the past but to use caution when looking into their training, I aslo suggest the same when looking at today’s top elites. Many of the same concepts the elites use do apply to us, but rarely in the quantities, proportions, or speeds. It’s not as simple as just evenly scaling down one of their programs. In my opinion, certain foundations need to be established in newer runners before moving on to more advanced workouts, though there is nothing wrong with a little experimentation.

Anyway, check out the link and hopefully we can open a training discussion on the subject.

Constructive comments are always welcome. ; ^ )

Being a dick isn’t! >= (

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I thought I’d add some key quotes here:

“According to his wife and training advisor, Sandra, Khannouchi always runs negative-split long runs, warming up for several miles, and then running just 15 to 20 seconds slower than his marathon pace. The last three miles, he goes for broke. “He tries to run them at about his 10-K race pace ,” she says.”

“In recent years, more coaches and runners have turned to marathon pace as the foundation of their long-run strategy. Here’s a common approach, supported by many experts, including Jack Daniels, Ph.D., author of Daniels Running Formula, and popular online coach Greg McMillan: Run the first 10 miles of your long run at an easy pace, then gradually accelerate to marathon pace over the last eight to 10 miles. A number of coaches believe in alternating your weekend long runs. That is, do an EZ-all-the-way long run one week, and an MP-based long run the next.”

"Leave it to Daniels, the master of tempo training, to figure a way to introduce lactate-threshold workouts into a marathon plan. “I favor a variety of long runs,” Daniels says. “You just have to be careful that your long run doesn’t affect another quality workout that’s coming up.”

Here’s a particularly clever Daniels-endorsed way to do tempo training on a 20-miler. Start with two miles at EZ pace, then do 4 x 2 miles at LT pace, about marathon pace minus 30 to 50 seconds per mile. Between the two-milers, jog easily for two minutes. Finish your run with 10 miles at EZ pace.

Jason Karp likes to use LT pace for the last three to four miles of a long run. “It’s a key physiological variable,” he says. “If we can improve someone’s LT, they’ll run a faster marathon.” "

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So essentially it should be good to do that at the end of a long run as long as your body can recover from it and thats where the distinction lies?

Grant

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That’s the key to any training. Getting as much in as possible, while still getting the recovery. The idea is to just know how much is too much.

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Barry, approaching the long run is difficult. There is a biomechanical component that needs to be addressed. I see too many people changing their natural form while they try to run slower. e.g. Too much verticality in their gait as they try to slow down or body rocking back and forth…and they are doing this for a LONG time. This leads to injuries which could be avoided. IMHO, the long run should be built up slowly with one’s natural gait and HR serving as dual limiters. It will take people longer to achieve their mileage but once adapted they are able to run their long runs at a more efficient/faster (biomechanical and physiological) pace.

Good Post

Woody

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I like fast finish long runs, but I don’t think they should be a staple type of workout for most. I would think that they are beneficial for 1/2 IM training, maybe Oly–but that would be a stretch. You, and RW, discuss these workouts without really explaining what they prepare the athlete for.

Should we do these all the time? What if a 13 mile long run at MP + 60s is really challenging for the athlete? Should they start incorporating a fast finish too?

If the athlete is ready for this type of workout, when in their training should they incorporate it?

Also, you fail to address that Khannouchi is injured. A lot.

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You, and RW, discuss these workouts without really explaining what they prepare the athlete for.

I can offer my opinion on that after lunch. Do you have any thoughts?

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When training for Xterra’s a couple years ago the recommendation I got (from UCD Sports Medicine) was to take the long run and divide up as follows (this example assumes a 90 min long run:

15 min w/up
20 min easy
20 min moderate
20 min fast
15 min cool down

So the middle portion of the run was divided into thirds with increasing intensity. Seemed to work well and was not bad to recover from. I’d say you’d need a good base first.

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Not to speak on Barry’s behalf, but … I believe long runs with a fast finish better stimulate what its like to go at goal pace (marathon pace for example) after you have already expended a lot of energy – ie, can you really do a few 7 min. miles after 90 min .of easier running (even if its 8:30 pace)?? If you can’t do a 15-20 miler and “finish fast” you had better reassess your goal. I nearly always throw in 3-5 goal pace miles near the end of a long run when marathon training, but still “cool down” for a mile or 2 …

If a 13-miler at MP+60 is “really challenging” then MP may be too ambitious … As far as when to incorporate, I don’t see why anyone can’t include GP miles from the beginning. So an athlete’s first 10-mile long run might just include 10 min. at GP, then build up over 3-4 months so their 20-milers would include 30+ min. at GP …

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QUOTE: I can offer my opinion on that after lunch. Do you have any thoughts?

In longer events, like a marathon, where the athlete is running/racing at a pace faster than an aerobic type of effort they will start to slow down, fast finish long runs train them to find a way to run fast when they’re tired.

It’s probably not the only way to train to be able to do this, but it’s one way.

For most, in a marathon, running fast will mean being able to maintain their goal pace. For Khalid, Tergat, it means creating a selection. Most of us don’t have to drop two miles at 10 to 15 sec. faster than goal pace in a marathon to be successful.

For the 1/2 IM’ers it probably means really running for the whole 13.1. But most of the field isn’t able to run faster than they would if they just went out for a training run! A fast finish long run may not be the remedy for that. It makes some sense to me that a good goal pace for a 1/2 IM Run split is an open Marathon goal pace. Maybe a bit faster.

Even for the Oly distance, some of us aren’t blessed with fantastic 10K speed, so how do we train to run fast after a really hard bike–well we can do bricks–which, like the fast finish long run is training us to run well on tired legs. I prefer a fast finish long run to a brick, but that’s just me.

I would like to see a post about the Lessing Paradox – that guy can consistently run really fast in a 1/2 IM and didn’t he drop a 76 half-marathon split at IMLP after leading the bike?

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QUOTE: "As far as when to incorporate, I don’t see why anyone can’t include GP miles from the beginning. So an athlete’s first 10-mile long run might just include 10 min. at GP, then build up over 3-4 months so their 20-milers would include 30+ min. at GP … "

I would contend that, while this may be a good workout, it’s not addressing the same limiter that a 16miler (or more) with a 1/2 hour fast finish will address.

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“tempo” long runs are as important as “EZ” long runs.
“EZ” long runs will help the runner become more efficient, especially with fat burning focus.
“tempo” long runs will help the body & mind of the runner being more aware of a marathon-like env.

  • Firstly it will help you with figuring out your marathon pace: If you have trouble running @ marathon pace or slightly faster for about 4 miles toward the end of the long run. Then you will definitively not be able to hold that marathon pace for the whole marathon.
  • Secondly, if you run @ marathon pace or slightly faster for about 4 miles toward the end of the long run, then during the marathon, your body and mind will be like hey been there/done that I know how to deal with that…

Fred.

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“I would contend that, while this may be a good workout, it’s not addressing the same limiter that a 16miler (or more) with a 1/2 hour fast finish will address.”

This assumes that most people don’t run 15-20-mile long runs year round … So, as you build up your long run for a marathon or half (from a 10-miler 6 months out to a 20-miler 1 month out) include GP/MP/tempo during them – at least a little bit – from the very beginning … That’s all I am saying.

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First I want to clarify that my real experience with coaching/running is for 3K - 10K races. Also, I don’t have a ton of experience with MP runs with or without a long run. So I can only really speak from what I’ve read and a bit of intuition - fair enough?

1st off - I like to see the long get to be as long as possible without compromising the rest of the week’s workouts. For some that may be 10 miles. For others it could be 20. From there it will depend a lot on the demands of the race distance relative to the athlete trying to complete it.

MP runs, in gerneral have more benefit to those who intend to race at that pace, which should include the marathon and the HIM for most athletes. Note, by MP I really mean ~ 85% of max HR or ~ 15-20 seconds/mile slower than LT. For slower people who are just trying to finish a marathon, their actual marathon race pace will be significantly slower than what I just described.

Given this, however, I think there IS a benefit of the longer MP run (60 minutes) compared to the shorter LT run (20-40 minutes) for most race distances. I like it as an alternate workout. I think you can only gain so much by doing 20-40 minutes at LT week in and week out. Though that pace is optimal, one needs to throw in some LT + intervals along with some longer LT - workouts to try to stimulate you rbody in different ways (many top coaches believe this as well).

In addition, I think there is some value to one training for the half marathon or longer to throw in some LT paced running in the middle or end of some long runs. Again, like stated above, I think you can only get so much out of running the same long run week in and week out. Once you have hit a point where the long run really just maintains your fitness, then you may want to throw in an added stimulous. Running the last 3 miles at LT of a medium length long run will simulate running at LT while tired, much like you’d have to at the end of an HIM, mary, half, etc. I don’t believe, however, that this will be nearly as beneficial for 5K and 10K training.

The MP runs in the middle of a long run (the real topic here) are of value for someone who is actualy capable of running a marathon @85% of their max HR, or 15-20 seconds per mile slower than LT. Anyone slower than that simply needs to build endurance and focus on weekly mileage and the length of their long run. Very strong IM runners may also benefit from this type of training. Provided the runner IS strong, I’d still like to see them getting in regular 18-22 mile runs and, perhaps, throwing in the MP run during the long run about once every 3 weeks (as per a Pfitzinger artilce I read).

Also note that Daniels has written online ( and aludes to it in his book) that the shorter LT paced runs in th emiddle of long runs will offer the same stimulous but be less stressful on the body.

Soooo…IMHO, a variety of the workouts would be good for a competent runner racing a mary, or an HIM (or an IM for a top level runner). The weaker runner should focus more on the long run and weekly mileage. Strong runners racing a half would do all of these except the MP run during a long run. As the race distance gets shorter, the less valuable a throwing fast stuff into a long run becomes…with possible exceptions to the top elites who can easily crank out 20 milers without blinking, but even then they might be better served by just training harder the day after.

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QUOTE: “The MP runs in the middle of a long run (the real topic here) are of value for someone who is actualy capable of running a marathon @85% of their max HR, or 15-20 seconds per mile slower than LT. Anyone slower than that simply needs to build endurance and focus on weekly mileage and the length of their long run.”

This distintion is huge. If an athlete isn’t at this level there are perhaps more readily achieveable gains.

So, what of the training for an Olympic distance triathlon event. Would you prescribe a fast finish long run? Given the athlete could run a marathon at the pace above?

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So, what of the training for an Olympic distance triathlon event. Would you prescribe a fast finish long run? Given the athlete could run a marathon at the pace above?

I’m on the fense about that. I think you are correct (did you say this?) that there’s more value from a brick than a fast finish long run, though I may stick one or two in during a season.

For an OLY I’d just leave the LT work in the tempo runs, though I think there is some value from hour long MP runs as an occasional alternative. It also depends on how much time they spend training every week. If they just aren’t going to schedule in a lot of training, then these harder “mix workouts” may become more valuable. Someone who only runs, say, twice a week may want to do an hour long MP run one day and a long run with an LT paced last 3 miles the second day…just a thought.

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Who do you mean is a really strong runner? A sub 3h IM and sub 2.5h marathon or what?

I personally think that one should always run as fast as possible. The speed depends on your fitness and the type of training you are doing. Last year i only ran 3 times / week b/c i wanted to focus on the swim and bike, so i ran my long run at 4:20-4:30 min/km (3h-3:10h marathon finish) even when i did 2.5h of running. I think that made me real strong at all distances, my main focus is on IM distance.

One work out that i did a couple of weeks before IM Germany was 1.5h in distance tempo and then i did 6x1000m on 3:30 min/km with 1 min rest between. I got really sore but 3 days after i did 16:25min in a sprint. After this workout i felt like superman when i was running :slight_smile:

So i think that you shouldn´t be afraid of running fast on your long runs, just be sure to take it easy a couple of days after.

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I personally think that one should always run as fast as possible.

Jocke,

 Out of curiosity, do you come from a running background or a cycling/swimming background?  The only reason I ask is that I have learned that you can push a lot harder in a cycling or swimming workout than you can in a running workout on a day to day basis.  If you were only a runner (and not a triathelte) I think you'd quickly realize how badly "always running fast" will be for you (this is assuming 7 days a week of running). 

 However, I agree with you on some level.  If you are only going to do a few run workouts a week AND have already gotten yourself in shape, then yes, most of the running should have some intensity (don't know about "as fast as *possible*"......but I'll go with "some intensity"). 

 Running a 15-20 miler "as fast as possible" every week will get you in a lot of trouble fast.  Even Khannouchi who is known for insane long run paces does them 20 seconds slower per mile than he is capable of. 

 IMHO, in your specific example, I think you have a pretty good program put together.  Either you know your stuff or you have a really good training instinct.  Most "novices" (I'm not calling *you* a novice) that I know would make a mistake of taking 3 minutes rest on those 1000s.  That's fine for 4-8 week blocks before an A race but it tends to be counter productive over the long run.  The fact that you keep your rests short keeps you closer to your lactate threshold during your workouts, something that can and should be targeted throughout most of the year. 

 if you want to read more of what I think on that subject, do a search on Runtraining1 once the search function gets fixed.
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not really a paradox as such… long runs are supposed to be slow to reduce injury, not specifically for training adaptations. Adaptations are maximized by maximizing the stress, the trick is to find a sustainable level of stress.
I don’t believe Khannouchi succeeded in this, given the struggles he’s had with injuries over the last several years. Was it worth it, to get those world records ? well that’s a question…

Personally I like to keep my long runs really slow, even with the much-despised Gallowalk breaks in them. I ran six marathons in the 3:06 to 3:10 range over several years, while doing fast long runs, before figuring this out. Running 2:40 required me to do much slower long runs…

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Thanks Doug. It looks like it truly is an issue for debate, particuarly regarding the risk of injury. After reading your post I think I’m going to re-evaluate my training plan (I am very injury prone).