Running shoe expert advice needed!

Here’s the scoop: Back in the day, I was a decent runner (back in the day = '74-'85). Bad knees took that away from me and I began cycling for the last 20 years. Knee surgery 2 1/2 years ago resolved the knee problem, but now I’m dealing with the ravages of time - achy, creaky, fat and pathetic (50 yrs olde). I bought a pair of NB 1040’s 2 1/2 years ago, but they’re shot and I need new shoes. In the 80’s Nikes fit me the best of any shoe out there, but I have no idea what shoe would fit me the best now as well as be the best for my fat, worn out ass. I have high to medium arches, but I pronate slightly. I weigh almost 190 lbs, but the young 180cranks weighed 153. I was 163 10 months ago. I think I’ll need some support/motion control and cushioning, but where should I start? Could I call Road Runner Sports and get competent advice? Anywhere else? I don’t have the time to go try on all the possible shoes out there, so I need to narrow it down to the most likely top 10.

Can anyone help a brother out?

ps: the NB’s were a size 10 and just a bit to big. I’d need sizing recommendations as well. My foot is medium to slightly narrow in width.

Well, for sure dont call RRS. VERY POOR ADVICE FROM THERE!

Call my boy Matt McCarron @ Running Center in California. http://runningcenters.com/locations.htm Matt works at both the Temecula and Carlsbad store. Not sure if he is working today, but he’ll be in for sure tomorrow. That man is the ONLY person other than me that I would say to get advice from. He’s FANTASTIC and will spend a great deal of time with youto get it right, especially if you tell him LaWoof sent you.

Off the top of my head, I would say that the MB900 would be the best shoe for you. That or the Nike Free. Just bumped into Benji Durden last week and he has been LOVING the Free. He gets about 1200-1500 miles out of a pair.

Call Matt, get it hooked up. Free or the 900. Thats my recomendation. Its hard to go wrong with those, but listen to what Matt has to say on the subject too.

Peace!

email Chuck at vitruvianrunning.com. You’ll love the flexible front. If you need a little antipronation, two of his models have that.

I do not work for Vitruvian (or anyone else, except my patients.)

Tai, where are you at?

I don’t think you should call anyone. Telephone and text advice on which shoe you should wear is just about totally useless. Unlike bike-makers, shoe-makers do not give you anywhere near enough geometry information to even come close to choosing the right shoe. In most cases, even the “same model” shoe differs drastically from year to year.

Your assumption that you “need some support/motion control and cushioning” is where you start. From there, flip through some magazine/catalogs/websites and get some notion of which brands have which shoes in that variety.

From there, go try some shoes on! Go to the mall, go to a New Balance shop, go to a specialty running store…whatever. But trying shoes on, actually feeling them on your feet, running up and down the aisles a bit, trying different lacing, etc. is the ONLY way to find shoes that fit correctly (excepting some custom shoes from foot moldings). Even after you buy them, it’ll take a few runs to know for sure, but they’ll be a lot closer to correct than if you take a shot in the dark on someones advice.

That being said, “some support/motion control and cushioning” screams Asics to me. And if you liked your NB 1040’s, New Balance is probably the best brand on the market for fit continuity from year to year and would make a good starting point.

The most competent advice you can get is your own. Especially since you were a runner for over 10 years, you know what you like in a shoe. Go to a store that lets you try the shoes out a bit - preferably one iwth a liberal return policy. Start with a NB that approximates the ones you had, if you liked them. Go up or down in the stability and cushioning range as you feel. Don’t let a salesman talk you into shoes. Run out the front door (with the shoes on) and make sure they’re comfortable. Then buy them and go for runs. If something hurts, take em back. Most running shoes these days are WAY overengineered complete with goofy decoration on the toebox and molded arches. If you only slightly pronate, you may do better on a cushioned shoe while you drop some weight, then switch back to a more stripped down ‘retro’ shoe like you wore back in the day.

FWIW, I’ve found teh last used by nike in the 80s is most closely approximated by adidas. So if you liked early air max triax and the like, check out a supernova. I’m a big adidas fan, but i picked up a set of vitruvians and they’re great. None of the fancy overengineering nike and asiics and nb are pitching these days. Don’t buy more shoe than you need.

LaWoof,

A quick question for you, I have had problems with ITBS, and surgery on a torn miniscus, I think my problem is I tend to supinate from being some what bull legged. With this amount of limited info, would it be best for me to be in a minimal shoe like the free, or some type of built up orthotic?

Thanks-

I’m a certified shoe geek. First off, don’t go getting the Nike Free’s. That’s ridiculuous. You need a solid stability trainer.

The Mizuno Wave Inspire, Asics GT-2100 and Brooks Adrenaline are the best of the bunch. Come on over to the Runners World forums if you want to hear more.

Personally, I’d go w/ the Inspires. They’re my current favorite.

At 190, you may want to consider some of the higher-end stability shoes as well. I would recommend the Mizuno Nirvana or Asics Kayano. Another popular high-end stability shoe is the Saucony Grid Hurricane - but make sure you get the newest (7) version as almost everyone hated the 6.

Since you mentioned Nike and New Balance, if you’d like to stick with those brands, check out the Air Structure Triax 8 which is Nike’s best shoe in this category. For NB, the 766 is their mid-range stability trainer. The NB 900 is a lightweight trainer - you may like it for shorter runs, but I wouldn’t recommend it for everyday training for you - it’s got a pretty skimpy forefoot. I’d also check out the 1122 (I think that’s the latest) which is NB’s high-end stability shoe for bigger runners.

Hope this helps. But hop on over to the RW forums and you’ll get all the runnning shoe advice you need.

Oh, one other thing. You mentioned your foot width. Well, most co’s make shoes in widths - but you’re probably a standard D. What’s more important to distinguish between brands is what your heel and forefoot widths are like. For example, if you have a narrow heel, Mizuno or Brooks would probably be the best. Asics heels tend to be a little wider. Same goes for NB. Saucony’s classic fit is also narrow heel but very wide/roomy forefoot. Brooks forefoot tends to be fairly wide as well. Mizuno a little less so.

You will also find that the serious running shoe co’s have multiple “lasts” or foot models w/in each of these characteristics, for a “normal” foot, a more curved last, and exceptionally straight last etc. But you probably have a fairly normal foot pattern and so don’t worry too much about this.

“I think I’ll need some support/motion control and cushioning”

No. You don’t. Get a pair of flats/lightweight trainers.

Yes, they’ll hurt your feet to start. Suck it up.

You want comfort? That’s what your couch is for.

I have a medium/narrow width foot. I wear Saucony Fasttwitch, and sometimes my NB 833’s.

I have a few questions for you…

  1. “I’m a certified shoe geek.” - certified in what way? In otherwords, why should someone take your advice over anyone else’s. You’re new to the forum, so it’s good to get an idea of one’s knowledge source/expertise.

  2. “…don’t go getting the Nike Free’s. That’s ridiculuous. You need a solid stability trainer.” - can you qualify these statements? What are you basing this advice on? How do you draw your conclusions?

Thanks…

Sure. I have no formal “shoe” certifications, so I’m not super knowledgeable or anything. But I’ve been a distance runner for over 10 years, and like a lot of other runners, I’ve tried out and gone through a ton of different running shoes and from the RW forums heard the opinions of hundreds of other serious runners too. So I don’t have any special qualifications, but since I’ve just started triathlons and have spent the majority of my time running, I have probably had more experience with more running shoes than most folks here. That’s all.

Second, the Nike Free. The Free has a very specific purpose - to help runners strengthen their foot muscles by providing minimal support and letting the foot “do” the work. It’s been discussed a ton on the RW forums. The general conclusion is that it probably works, but that you can get much of the same benefit by just running barefoot on grass or something similar.

But the Free is not intended to be an everyday trainer. I talked to a Nike rep in a local running store and his recommendation was no more than 3-5 miles. In addition, it’s not an ideal shoe (even for this purpose) for heavier folks. So, yes, it’s a pretty ridiculous recommendation to tell someone to go use these as an everyday trainer - there’s a recipe for injury.

Now, yes, there are runners out there who do use the Free as an everyday trainer. But they’re a small minority. There are also runners who train and run marathons barefoot. However, it’s ridiculuous to suggest that to the average runner, who will likely suffer greatly if they try that.

As for why I said you need a solid stability trainer? Well, the guy said he’s a bit of an overpronator. If you OP, you need some stability. Generally, unless it’s severe, a stability shoe will work fine. Also, even if you don’t OP, you can generally get away w/ more stability than you need w/o it being an issue. And then I just recommended some of my favorite and other top stability trainers are.

But hey, I’m not claiming any special expertise. And since this is an online forum, I’m not sure how anyone else can either. It’s just my opinion - if you like it or it’s helpful, great, if not, no harm. But if you’d really like to know more, seriously, hop on over to the RW forums where all things running and shoe related are discussed. There’s people who know a lot more than me there.

Thanks for the info on yourself and your opinions, and also welcome to the forum.

I’ve been a runner for about 16 years, and I’ve come to different conclusions than you regarding appropriate shows for people. I don’t know what the right shoes are for 180cranks or for anyone else for that matter, I’m still learning what works best for me as I age and my body has changed from a middle school runner at 100 lbs to a 28 year old at 160 lbs.

I realize that your opinions are mainstream, however, I personally am quite skeptical of shoes that attempt to “help” the foot (none of them have ever helped me, and I’ve tried a lot of different ones). Maybe people shouldn’t be running more than 3-5 miles at a time when they are coming back from injuries or just starting. And how does anyone know that the human foot is incapable of handling more than this mileage in a minimal shoe while building the mileage up properly?

Certainly, if modern running shoes were perfect, we wouldn’t have all the injuries that we have, and this discussion would be moot. But what if people are buying these shoes because this is what is in the runnning store when we walk in the door, and what is recommended to us by sales people regurgitating information from someone else? I’m not suggesting some big conspiracy by shoe companies, but realistically these companies are money oriented. Plus, as an engineer and research scientist (in a field not related to running shoes), I realize that it’s possible to go down the entirely wrong path when searching for a solution to a problem. Combine these two factors, and it seems to me that it is plausible that most people are running in shoes with too much “stuff” in them. With an increasing number of people trying to run in minimal shoes (including myself) we will hopefully find out.

It is my opinion, from limited research and experience using a minimal shoe, that the knees takes less of a beating and the foot is more stable with a low profile shoe. It is the foot and lower leg that needs to adapt. This is just an opinion (however several others have much more experience with this than me), but can you prove it wrong? If not, then I think it is a bit harsh and over-reaching of your knowledge to state that it is ridiculous for someone to do all their running in the Nike Free.

Jack

The less is more approach definitely worked for me. I’ve had shin splints and knee problems, but it wasn’t until I dedicated myself to improving my technique that I’ve been able to run relatively pain free.

As far as stability goes, I think there is merit to being lower to the ground. I run most trails and have very weak ankles. Shoes with a lot of padding seemed to make my feet roll on certain types of terrain. Either the lower center of gravity or increased feel of minimal shoes has so far prevented me from twisting my ankle at all.

The transition to minimal shoes wasn’t easy. I basically started from scratch. I still haven’t fully adapted but my form has improved immensely, something I don’t know would be possible with cushioning shoes.

I have the Nike Free’s but they really aren’t a low profile shoe. They have as much heel cushion as any other shoe. They will make your feet stronger, but you can still heel strike and not feel it. I don’t know if you would get the same type of off road stability either.

Jack,

Thanks for your reply. Running and how the foot works is a pretty complex subject and so it’s difficult to claim that any one approach really works the best. Reality is, different things work better for different folks.

As you point out, my views are pretty mainstream. I’d agree. However, they certainly don’t cover everyone and if minimalist shoes work for you, go for it. I definitely recognize that the minimal approach works for some people; you are not alone. There are a good # of folks on the RW forums that have similar experiences, i.e. that traditional shoes didn’t work for them and the minimalist approach helped strengthen their feet and legs and make them a better runner.

However, the vast majority of runners don’t benefit from that approach and need a shoe that both offers cushioning and helps manage their footstrike. Moving to a more stable shoe has helped my footstrike and alleviated injuries. BTW, I’m about the same size and age as you and was also a 100-110 lb XC HS runner.

Also, I find that almost everyone I’ve either met or who posts on RW that they’ve been successful with the minimalist approach are both experienced runners and on the slim side. I think that’s an important consideration: When you run and have run a lot, your body has done some natural adopting and is better at handling the shocks, so having less cushioning on your feet may be OK. When you weigh less, you’re exerting less force (and thus the ground is exerting less force on you) so you don’t need quite as much shock absorption. This probably holds for you - I don’t know your height, but at 160 you’re probably pretty slim and since you’ve been running for 16 years, I’d guess it’s fair to say that your body has adapted to it.

But 180cranks isn’t, and so I think it would almost certainly be a very bad recommendation to put him in a pair of Nike Free’s as his everyday trainer. Note: I think while there are some similarities, there is also a fairly big difference between the Free and minimalist shoes like a racing flat. I agree that there are people (and I know several) who are perfectly fine training in racing flats but who wouldn’t in the Free. It really has a much different purpose. And perhaps “ridiculuous” was too harsh a word, but I just thought that was in all likelihood a bad suggestion.

As to your last point, I do agree that a lower profile shoe is more stable. That is true - when your heel is lower to the ground, that is a naturally more stable position. I’m not sure I’d agree that the knee takes less of a beating. Of course, that’s pretty complicated - the knee absorts shocks that come up from your shoes/feet/lower leg. Certainly some of that is whatever you shoes/feet don’t absorb, though the knee also takes a pounding from incorrect mechanics which is what primarily causes ITBS and runners knee.

I might venture that you and others may also do better in a minimalist shoe because it works best with your biomechanics where “overengineered” shoes mess that up, and wrong mechanics probably cause more knee problems than not enough cushion in your shoes. BTW: what sort of surfaces do you normally run on? If you’re running on dirt or grass mostly, you can definitely get away with “less” of a shoe than on concrete or asphalt.

I’ll conclude by saying that there is a healthy minority of runners who can get away with a more minimal shoe and mabye some who can run all day long in the Free. But I think that is just that, a minority, that mostly includes relatively lightweight, experienced runners with fairly good mechanics to begin with. I don’t know either if you can go more than 3-5 miles in the Free for most people; but I figure a Nike rep would know better than either of us. Likewise, the majority of running literature steers most runners away from minimal shoes unless you’re pretty light and have good mechanics. Go to runnersworld.com, the shoe section, and you’ll see an article on “whether racing shoes are for you”. You can disagree with the conclusion but it’s a pretty reputable source.

Anyway, I’m done discussing this. Hope it was helpful to anyone else reading it.

“I find that almost everyone I’ve either met or who posts on RW that they’ve been successful with the minimalist approach are both experienced runners and on the slim side”

Maybe thier successful and slim because they wear a minimalist shoe and not the other way around.

I know a few big dudes (pronators too) around here that switched to minimalist shoes. They run better, faster and more often.

Thanks everybody on the shoe advice. The spirited give and take debate was useful. I’ll let you know what I do and how it works out.

180Cranks,

I own a running store, which means I (or my staff) have worked with over 2000 runners this year of all different shapes and sizes trying to find the right running shoes. While I believe the “minimalist” approach works for many people, I do not think it will work for your situation. In that regard I have some personal experience as well as several customer experiences: minimalist shoes work great when you’re fit, and help you develop better form & economy when your form and economy are already decent. When they’re not, you’re more likely to injure yourself than to help yourself.

In your situation your feet and lower legs are not yet strong enough or flexible enough to accomodate the force and motion required by running. You develop that strength and flexibility by running, but along the way you need shoes that help you by exerting the forces your muscles would exert if you were fitter. If your self-assessment is correct and you have relatively high arches, it’s likely that you’ll develop that strength quickly and can “step down” to less stable shoes. But for just getting back to running after a 20 year hiatus, you will benefit from erring on the side of cushioning and stability.

I agree with most of Nycowl’s comments above so I won’t repeat them. The one comment that I disagree with is with having a low profile, or more specifically a low heel shoe like the NB900. Most Americans & Europeans have calf muscles that are too short/tight to rapidly extend the heel all the way to the ground, and most have calf muscles that are not strong enough to then rapidly lift the heel off the ground. A higher heel relative to the forefoot means you can get away with less range of motion in your calf muscles. If you don’t have the range of motion, you’ll only injure yourself by trying to run in low profile shoes. You can develop that range of motion, but like anything else you develop it gradually.

Without looking at your feet or watching you run to verify any of your self assessments, I would suggest the Asics Kayano 10 or 11, the Saucony Hurricane (model 7, not model 6), or the Mizuno Nirvana. If you can find a Brooks Trance NXS (it’s an ugly orange color, but it works a lot better than the current NXR which is blue) that would also be worth trying. If you want to step down in price, look at the Asics 2100 or the Brooks Adrenaline. Stay away from the Saucony Omni 4, which is much firmer than it should be, and the Mizuno Inspire, another shoe that wasn’t executed well. I’m not particularly fond of New Balance’s offerings in this category, but if you want to try NB look for the 1221 or the 856.

DO NOT let anyone steer you towards one particular brand or another. You need to find the right category of shoe, and then try the offerings from several brands to see which one works best for you.

While the shoes I suggested are all “Premium Stability” or “Stability” shoes, they provide stability using different technologies. Some will work for you, some will not, depending on how your muscles need to be supplemented. Also, each manufacturer has a different “model foot”, so some shoes will feel comfortable and some will feel less comfortable. The best way to pick the right one is to have someone at your local running store watch you run. If the store has a treadmill that’s the best way, but if not, the person you work with should be out on the sidewalk or in the parking lot watching you go back and forth in different shoes.

Good luck!

Lee Silverman
JackRabbit Sports
Park Slope, Brooklyn

“I’ll conclude by saying that there is a healthy minority of runners who can get away with a more minimal shoe and mabye some who can run all day long in the Free. But I think that is just that, a minority, that mostly includes relatively lightweight, experienced runners with fairly good mechanics to begin with.”

“I don’t know either if you can go more than 3-5 miles in the Free for most people; but I figure a Nike rep would know better than either of us.”

I’m not particularly light and I can run real long (multiple 2.5-3.0 hour runs) in Nike Frees. In fact, after adapting to the flexibility and increasing foot strength as required (and to Nike’s credit, as advertised), I find they no longer even feel light or particularly fast to me, but they are super comfortable. I’d also like to see Nike come out with a true minimal version of the Free, with a sole of even height and low heel. That would be my ideal shoe.

I suspect Nike reps have talking points to go by, and they are supposed to recommend the Free as a foot-strengthener and not an everyday running shoe, despite its suitability for such an application. Calling it an everyday trainer would be too radical a step for the company and the Free model at this point, but I personally hope they’ll progress to the point where they can promote an even more minimal version of it as a daily trainer.

Your point about good mechanics is salient and well taken, but if one never “graduates” to minimal shoes it’s hard to really get a feel for good foot placement, so it’s somewhat of a Catch-22.

every time a company changes my current favorite shoe, I know it’s time to buy anywhere from 4 -6 new shoes before I find one that works.

one companies mc shoe is anothers stability trainer, and vice-versa.
I loved the kayanos i had back in 2000, not sure what model they were, last years kayanos absolutely killed my feet. felt like I was running on rocks

the hurricane 5, pretty good but too much pushing up into my arch.

I actually love the omni 4 I have the moderate stability version, and I love them.

I 'm 5’11" 195 slightly higher arch than most people and tend to have itb problems on the right side.

your mileage may vary :slight_smile: