Figuring out zones for the bike is cake – I train by power. What are the preferred methods for determining HR zones for running?
Gotta find out what your LTH is… from there, it’s easy…
here is an idea. you train by power on the bike. Then instead of figuring out HR zones figure out paces that you should be running. So z1 might be 7:30-7:40 z2 7:20 -7:05 etc. Hr can be influenced by many factors. you might be running a normal pace but your HR may be off by 5-10% due to cardiac drift, poor hydration, too much red bull, heat, humidity, lack of sleep etc. 7:00 per mile is the same training stimulis as 7:00 per mile. Even if on one day your hr is 145 and the next 160 due to exteranl factors. If you slowed down b/c your hr is higher you might not achieve the training stimulis that you were looking for. Just a thought.
LTHR… OK, how do I do that? Hopefully not via an hour TT like on the bike! 
I like the idea of pace zones, but… it’s hilly where I live, and not many areas are marked with distances (only the bike path). If I ran mostly on the track or bike path, then it would be money for sure.
No offense, you clearly know more about training than I do given the fact that you coach others, but what you said seems to go against everything I have ever read or heard about training w/in HR zones. As I understand it your max HR is what it is. It cannot be affected by fitness, hydration, alcohol, etc., unlike your resting HR, which through fitness will become lower as your cardio-vascular system become more efficient.
Isn’t more important to determne what your true max HR is (through some sort of testing) and then train within certain zones for aerobic and anaerobic development? There was a great article on this website about how individual max HR’s were (meaning the established formulas were complete BS) see - http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/coachcorn/max.html . When you speak of zones being based on a particular pace, that sounds more like a “rate of perceived effort” to me, which has some value but is not very accurate. You may be able to run a 7:00 pace one day at 75% max HR but the next day that same effort may take an 87% max HR. Now you are talking about the difference between running aerobically one day and on the verge of lactate threshold the next. This doesn’t seem like a very scientific plan to me.
Pace, IMO is not nearly as important as training within HR zones or LTH zones, since those zones determine pace on a day-to-day basis.
To create Heart rate training zones for running (or cycling) you will need to find two heart rates: A heart rate when Anaerobic Threshold (AT) occurs. This can be done using a metabolic analyzer, which is preferred if you want numbers that are accurate, precise and re-measureable, or do a field test ie: 10k race which is just about your threshold effort. If you cant get a Vo2 test done that can also get your AT, my old coach and mentor, Jack Daniels likes to use a 10k race.A heart rate when Respiratory Compensation (RC) occurs or Max Vo2 (and peak HR). Again, this can be done using a metabolic analyzer. The %s are of HR @ AT. So if during the Vo2 max test, the analyzer detects your AT Vo2 at 46.6 ml/o2/kg/min and your AT HR is 165bpm, and your max is 51.7 ml/o2/kg/min with a max HR of 191bpm, you plug those HR #s into the below: **Zone 1: **75%-84% of AT- recovery easy running Zone 2: 85%-95% of AT- base work/ endurance pace Zone 3: AT – 110% of **AT-threshold/tempo work Exception: if 110% is over Max- then use 105% Zone 4: **111% of AT – Max-Interval and Repetition pace I use these zones to train all my athletes. This is also the same formula that Paul Robbins uses for EVERY pro athlete that walks through the doors of Athlete’s Performance in Tempe Arizona- (That is Mark Verstegan’s place who wrote Core Performance) Every three months we retest and see if we need to make any adjustments in their zones and paces as their fitness level changes. Hope this helps.
Are you actually “prescribing” that an athlete run a specific pace regardless of what is happening in their body physiologically? ie run 7 min pace regardless of what your body is doing/feeling? It has been proven that base running responds to TIME of running, not intensity- the more time you run, the more benefits in the muscles and cells (again talking about base pace efforts) Naturally slower running is better because faster running doesnt do any better at this job and you will be willing to run longer if you are going comfortably. But in your post if I am reading it correctly, you are saying run a 7 minute mile regardless?
-If someones HR is high for any of the reasons you mentioned, you still insist on them running faster to meet that 7 min pace- I don’t see the logic in that- what if they are feeling tired and fatigued yet do they still run that seven minute pace? Wont that just drain them for further day’s training and the following day? A seven minute mile is not always a seven minute mile- With a HR variable zone, you can judge how fast you are going to run depending on how you feel, ie 85-95% AT for base work.
Aztec - I have some articles on my site that may help you:
http://www.d3multisport.com/articles.html
Basically, run the 30’ LT test and determine your zones from there. I hope this helps.
Mike
What i should have typed is.
First off you, I and everyone who has read one book on training knows that HR is subjective in nature and too many enviromental and physiological factors can influnce HR from day to day. it’s 90F and 85% humidity today vs its 80 and 20%humidity the next will drastically change how the HR responds to the same training stimulis. I drank only tea and colas today vs I drank only water yesterday will change the HR given the same training stimulis.
I don’t actually prescibe training specifically this way for anyone coach. I do want them to know how fast or slow they normally run at what ever zone they are running in. You need to take into account PRE, HR, *and *pace. Coaching is individualistic in nature and I may coach you completely different than I coach your next door neighbor.
If you know that your threshold is say 5:40 pace and your hr on a day when your doing 2x10 @threshold is a few beats higher then your threshold zone are you not still running threshold pace if your clocking along at 5:40 mile pace? If your on a long run and your running 10-12sec per mile faster but staying in your target zone could you not be running too fast? Might the last few miles of that long run become a struggle b/c, even though the athlete is in the proper zone, the pace is too fast to be maintained for say 105 minutes? What good does it do the athlete to start at say 7:30 pace and finish at 8:30 pace when if they had started at 7:40 pace they could have finished at 7:45 pace.
I am saying the HR is inflenced by too many variables that it is not always a good judge of how the workout is actually progressing. If you tell me to run between 75-85% of AT but it’s 103 and 50% humidity (quite typical) at 6:30 pm when I start my runs in the summer, my hr may be above 85% very shortly into the run. Why? Enviromental factors are the primary culprit.
In this case should I slow down my running pace to drop it into my prescribed zone, or should I maintain my normal pace that I usually run while at 75-85% of AT?
Due to the heat/humidity in AZ, or the humidity on the east coast I could actually be running slower as winter progressed into summer instead of running faster if I strictly based my running on HR.
Aztec - I have some articles on my site that may help you:
http://www.d3multisport.com/articles.html
Basically, run the 30’ LT test and determine your zones from there. I hope this helps.
Mike
Thanks, Mike.
Max HR is irrelevant. LT is the only number you need to know, and then set your training levels from there. There are a few schools of thought as to what to use, but all should be based on percentage of LT, not max.
Jason,
For determining AT via 10k race, was that average HR for the entire race?
Not wanting to start a threshold fight, but what’s your definition of threshold?
Because Daniels’ is, as you know, the pace you can mantain for a one-hour maximum performance. As a general comment I would say that a 10k race is well above MAXLASS for most runners but the slower ones.
Brian, you make some interesting comments about the variability of heart rate.
People often become HR slaves, when HR is nothing but just another training tool that along with others help you determine the correct intensity.
Just as it happens, this morning I picked up Daniels’ to look something up and my eye caught the chapter on heart rate. The comments made there make a lot of sense and should be in every coaches’ mind.
Paulo
Since you like training with power, why not get a gps and Jack Daniels book and run by pace instead of heart rate. desertdude makes some very good points regarding the variability of heart rate.
greg
SAC
No threshold fights here! You are right, Daniels’ and my definition of Threshold is the pace you can sustain for a one hour max performance- What Jack would do with a 10k race effort is us his Oxgen Power charts, get your Vdot and prescribe your training paces/HR Zones. He would convert the 10k performance into training efforts like in this pyramid. I should have been more descriptive and explained more in depth in that last thread as it was a bit misleading about the 10k effort.
Jack would then use this performance pyramid- 
Now here is where I work into the HR zones more than Jack- from the testing and reseach that I have done, and currently conducting we have come up with this- which works pretty darn well and corelates extremely close to Jack’s prescriptions-
85-95% of ATHR ellicits the long, steady easy efforts that Jack prescribes
100-110% of ATHR ellicits the Tempo/threshold efforts That Jack prescribes (100% usually for efforts leading up to an hour, 110% for efforts of 30-50 minutes)
110-115% of ATHR ellicits the Interval efforts that Jack prescribes
115-120% of ATHR ellicits the Repetition efforts that Jack prescribes- although with training efforts such as these, we do not use the HRM as they are too short and the time spent running (30-80 seconds) your HR will not get into the “zone” but the effort is still there-
These are Jacks prescribed efforts
NOTE The %s are of Vo2Max NOT HR
Jason… I got it the first time I read it, you don’t have to repeat it
Oh so that’s not my computer going crazy?
LOL some weird error on my computer with that- I was like holy shit!
Should be fixed now! Sorry ALL!!!