After a bit o f a lay off from running (due to injury, illness, an operation and, to be frank, a lack of motivation), I am ready to start running again, and training properly.
What I want to do, though, is train very effectively. For riding I use TrainerRoad and absolutely love it. The plans are crystal clear, follow an understandable progression and clearly target certain adaptations. It all makes a lot of sense. Most importantly, it’s tied to an initial ‘fitness test’ that all workouts are then scaled to - an FTP test. I’m not here to get into any debate about FTP, 4DP, or any other form of test. My point is that the plan is scaled around an initial fitness assessment so that the subsequent workouts are suitably taxing given their intended outcome.
What I am looking for is guidance on an equivalent test for running. I don’t own a running power meter, and have no desire to own one at the moment. As far as I can see the tech is still in its infancy and I don’t want o be an early adopter. I am very comfortable using HR and have a very good understanding of my zones (I used a 5 zone system with zone 5 being anything above lactate threshold heart rate).
Could someone point me in the direction of:
A test that I can do to gauge my running fitness and, from this, the speeds I should aim to be running at for my efforts (i.e. 7 min mile for 1km repeats, 7.15 for 1 mile repeats etc.). Ideally, I’d like to be similar to an FTP test in that I can schedule one every 6 weeks or so to gauge progress and update my planned workouts; and
Somewhere with decent training plans. I really like the base, build, specialty setup of trainerroad, so something similar would be really great. I am happy to pay for these, within reason!
My club uses the Daniels vocabulary for our training. Have you ever heard of Daniels Running Formula? Jack Daniels is a famous coach. Years ago he wrote a book expressing his training methodology. It is clear, concise and extremely useful for building youself a training program. He also lists training plans and all that but you don’t need them. All you really need is the vocabulary and a few simple principles and you can create a sensible training plan for yourself that reflects your current fitness and goals.
My recommendation is pick up a copy and read it. I think you’ll be glad you did. I’ve been using Daniels for almost 20 years. (I know there are others – other good ones. I don’t mean to imply this is the “best” solution. But it is good. And my familiarity is with it so…
But before aiming for any sort of training program, get the basics down. Get yourself running regularly without any plan or goals. Get yourself to the point where you can regularly run about 25-30 miles per week (all easy) without feeling like it’s wearing you down. I do mean easy. No speed work, just endurance. That’s the base. Just get running first.
Once you can do that for a few weeks, a 5k effort is a good test. Personally I would go for a local 5k race if you can find one. Perhaps try a couple over a few weeks. Just find a 5k and race it. Again on no speed work. Sometimes it takes a 5k or two to find your racing gear. Don’t worry about it. Don’t obsess over it. Don’t go out like you’re trying to set a PR. Go out a little easy and try to increase the effort the whole way.
And once you’ve got a 5k, time you can plug it into Daniels calculator and get a whole set of paces for training.
We have complicated the hell out of cycling. In my opinion running should be simple and is best kept that way.
If you really must quantify things your best bet might be to find a repeatable course/loop and race it as hard as you can now and again, and compare times. Do some races if you can, because people always find another few % when chasing after other people. If you can do a proper 5k or 10k at full race pace somewhere flat-ish then you can compare these times on the mcmillan tables and derive training paces from there, but it only really works over similar terrain (ie 5k flat pace doesn’t give you a very good pace to use training on a hilly course).
First of all, I totally agree with your views on running “power meters”, they’re just not worth it right now. However, unlike cycling, running pace works as an extremely good proxy for power and a *much *better way to dictate your training than HR.
As for a “running FTP test”, Joe Friel offers a similar way to test this and associated zones, but any zone-based system can only really be judged in the context of a training plan that utilises them. I can’t say I’ve ever used any Joe Friel training plans, but that might be somewhere to start looking? In my opinion, actually racing on a consistent course is going to be a much more rewarding experience that trying to gut out a 20 min TT on your own every 6-to-8 weeks. Do you have any local 5 or 10k race series that you could sign up to?
If you could give some background as to where you’re starting from it might help people to offer some relevant advice; what kind of peak running volume were you doing before the layoff and how many sessions? What were your PRs and what are you aiming for now? This may seem like a broad-sweeping statement, but in my own experience, if I’m in any worse than “20-min 5k” shape then the first things to address are consistency and volume before even thinking about doing testing and interval sessions etc etc.
Finally, TrainerRoad themselves have some run workouts as part of their triathlon plans and I use the broad structure of these as the basis of my running training schedule. I add in a few easy runs to bump up the volume and support the harder stuff, but it’s a great starting point if you’re trying to fit it around bike and/or swim training as well.
Thanks all, that’s really helpful. I’ve just ordered the Daniels’ running book, so looking forward to reading through that and gleaning as much as I can from it. I’m a very analytical person, so that kind of stuff really appeals to me and motivates me (hence why I used TrainerRoad rather than Zwift).
Awenborn, that’s a really good point(s) - context is everything. I didn’t want to end up with a TL;DR post giving my life history but the context is important.
So…
I’m a bit of a hot and cold runner. I fall in love with it, and get really good at 25-30 miles a week for a period of time (usually about 4 months), plateau and fall out of love with it. I’ve never got anywhere near to hitting my potential. 5k PB is 20:13, 10k 43:17 and half marathon is 1:37:43. I’m still young(ish) - 31, tall and lean, so see no reason at all why I shouldn’t be comfortably sub 20 for 5k, sub 40 for 10k and around 1:30 for a half. Those are my goals. My last really good bout of running was up to around September last year.
I have been for a couple of easy runs (using RPE - these were 4-5 out of 10) and was somewhat shocked to find I was cruising at 8:15 min miles. No muscle soreness at all after a 10k run at that pace yesterday. I’m pretty sure that my good level of cycling fitness (6-7 hours, 350+TSS, per week, for 3 months) has given me a strong aerobic base to work from…
I think a 5k is a good idea. I have this horrible mental block that I don’t want to do a race until I am confident I can be competitive with myself. I know this is self defeating, so I just need to pull my thumb out and do it. I can then use this as the basis for mapping out my paces etc. Luckily I have about 5 different, flat, 5k park runs within 20 min drive of me. That’s my saturday morning sorted :).
We have complicated the hell out of cycling. In my opinion running should be simple and is best kept that way.
If you really must quantify things your best bet might be to find a repeatable course/loop and race it as hard as you can now and again, and compare times. Do some races if you can, because people always find another few % when chasing after other people. If you can do a proper 5k or 10k at full race pace somewhere flat-ish then you can compare these times on the mcmillan tables and derive training paces from there, but it only really works over similar terrain (ie 5k flat pace doesn’t give you a very good pace to use training on a hilly course).
Jack Daniels VDOT pacing also an option as pointed out.
Or you could try and use that Karvonen heart rate bollocks, but you’ll take all the fun out of it.
I second the McMillan calculator. I have used it to successfully set my training paces for a few years. I find the range it provides is usually right where I need to be while also giving some flexibility for days when I am stronger than others.
I was an exercise science major in undergrad. We had the equipment to do VO2 max testing in our lab. A lot of times the program would seek out volunteers for us to do our testing on. If you live close to any schools or universities, you may be able to call and get a free, or discounted, VO2 max test completed.
I think a 5k is a good idea. I have this horrible mental block that I don’t want to do a race until I am confident I can be competitive with myself. I know this is self defeating, so I just need to pull my thumb out and do it. I can then use this as the basis for mapping out my paces etc. Luckily I have about 5 different, flat, 5k park runs within 20 min drive of me. That’s my saturday morning sorted :).
Ahh you didn’t say that you were in the UK; a parkrun is a perfect running equivalent of an FTP test! At your pace (i.e. ~20 mins) By the time you include a good warm-up, a few strides to open the legs as well as a decent cool-down you’re looking at the best part of an hour-long workout. They’re usually a great environment that should coax a strong effort out of you so it’d be a great testing-ground, but I wouldn’t be doing them every weekend like some fanaticists do, because a proper 5k effort will beat you up a fair bit and negatively affect the rest of your weekend’s training.
I can definitely relate to what you’re saying about not being “competitive with yourself” but you just need to swallow your pride, get down there and set yourself a baseline on which to improve. Aiming for those milestone times should prove to be a good motivation for training!
I’m a similar age to you and slightly faster PBs, but as I mentioned, in my experience, running a consistent 5 or 6 sessions a week is much more sustainable than trying to grind out intervals and hard efforts when you’re not in your best shape. As I mentioned before, the run workouts of the TrainerRoad triathlon plans (I’m following the full-length mid-volume one at the moment) can easily be adapted to a 5- or 6-run per week* BarryP* format, for example:
**Monday: **rest day
**Tuesday: **easy run (short)
**Wednesday: **tempo or interval session (mid) Thursday: easy or brick run (short)
**Friday: **easy run (mid) or rest
**Saturday: **post-long ride recovery run (short)
**Sunday: **long slow distance run (long)
We have complicated the hell out of cycling. In my opinion running should be simple and is best kept that way…
Nah, cycling is still just as complicated as you make it. Same goes for running surely?
People obsess about the numbers on the bike for one big reason…they are easy to see and record.
I love numbers. I’m an engineer after all.
But there’s a big difference in having numbers and misguidedly letting their existence have supreme influence on your activities even when you don’t know if you’re using the right ones!
For example, plenty people seem to love ERG mode because it produces nice power plots with very stable power levels at exactly the figure prescribed by a coach. Then they are stuck when someone doesn’t tell them what workout to programme. How will they know if they’re doing exactly the right amount of time at exactly the right percentage of FTP?
When you realise the limitations of estimating FTP (at least as most of us do it using 20 minute tests or similar) and that this number isn’t the same hour to hour or day to day, or that zones are not magically differentiated but simple baskets selected for convenience, it should be clear that we’re reading more into the precision of these numbers than we should. They make very useful indicators and targets but they shouldn’t drive everything we do…IMO
but the context is important.