Currently working towards improving my 10K and HM times, and being a cyclist really who has only dabbled with running, I would like to know how to get faster once leg turnover has already been worked on. I understand a cadence of around 180bpm is ideal, but once you’ve mastered that how do you get faster? Is it a case a simply pushing harder with each stride? Don’t know if it helps but I’m around 39mins for 10K.
Two basic principles from Joel Freil’s TTB:
Increased cadence with the same length of stride
Increased length of stride with the same cadence.
(I suppose you could do both at the same time, providing a third option).
Sounds like you’ve got your cadence where you want it so you’ll likely have to look at increasing the distance you cover with your stride. The focus should be on pushing off harder for the longer stride, not reaching further in front and hitting your heel. Once you do this your cadence will likely want drop and you’ll have to work on keeping that.
Just my $0.02
I’m looking forward to responses to this post since I’m in a similar situation. I’m trying to improve my 10k speed in the hopes that an improvement at that distance will carry over into a faster half-marathon. I run naturally at a 175-178bpm, so cadence isn’t my key to getting faster.
My tri season ended in September. Since then, I’ve been doing three runs a week: two on the treadmill, playing with short intervals (3-6 minutes, depending on the workout) at a much faster pace than I’m used to, and with incline to develop power; one run outdoors, either tempo or long depending on how I feel. I’ve noticed a change in my running economy, but like the OP I wonder how a person gets faster if they already have a high cadence.
Run faster.
Run faster.
This really does seem too simplistic, but it’s the answer. The faster you run, the faster you’ll get. Put another way, if you want to get fast, you’ve go to go fast. If you are putting in the weekly miles, integrating tempo efforts and longer intervals, your body will get more used to running that harder pace, and adapt. If you run every single run at, say 7:45/mi pace, you’re going to get good at running that pace, but not so much improving your racing speed. Look up BarryP stuff on this forum. I also found Daniels Running Formula to be a very good book that lays out the principals of getting faster.
I feel like people over think running too much.
Have a plan. Run a lot. Don’t get hurt. Incorporate speed work. Race. Repeat.
You have to focus on driving forward. As always, watch a video clip of Rinny Carfrae or another top runner. Watch then “Drive” off their leg at the end of their stride. You might try focusing on getting you heel up on your recovery. I find when I do that I immediately speed up by 0:15-0:30 as I’m sort of “following through” with my stride. Sort of like swinging a bag or a golf club. To help facilitate that, make sure you using you arms and they not just along for the ride.
This does however use your hamstring a lot more, so it may take time to adapt.
At the end of every run, go through some of the basic drills. Strides, Bounding (high knee skipping) and leg kicks.
All this stuff is repeated by Daniels, McMillan, BarryP, Friel.
+1 on varying your pace. If you have a good mileage base, you need ot mix in some tempo. You can recover from a couple tempo efforts a week without much trouble and not risk injury, compared to faster intervals or threshold runs. Tempo forces you ot use good form. It’s a high speed cruise that’s faster than marathon pace, but a little slower than 1/2 Marathon cruising pace, which it almost threshold pace. If you use HR, if you Threshold is 170, Tempo would be around 150-160 depending on how your feeling and how far your runnign tempo.
I’d start at just 20 minutes, and build form there up to eventually doing 1 hour.
Honestly, if you enjoy running, tempo is fun. It’s elevated and a little uncomfortable, but it’s the pace where you start to really feel like your flying. For me, its’ where my run economy is probably the most efficient and it’s where you can really see your progress. Just 5 weeks ago where I was seeing 155bpm at a given pace, I’m now at 148. I’ve gained aerobic fitness as well as I think gained some economy. I also dropped 2-3 lbs. The benefits of dropping weight at amazing.
You have to focus on driving forward. As always, watch a video clip of Rinny Carfrae or another top runner. Watch then “Drive” off their leg at the end of their stride. You might try focusing on getting you heel up on your recovery. I find when I do that I immediately speed up by 0:15-0:30 as I’m sort of “following through” with my stride. Sort of like swinging a bag or a golf club. To help facilitate that, make sure you using you arms and they not just along for the ride.
This does however use your hamstring a lot more, so it may take time to adapt.
At the end of every run, go through some of the basic drills. Strides, Bounding (high knee skipping) and leg kicks.
All this stuff is repeated by Daniels, McMillan, BarryP, Friel.
+1 on varying your pace. If you have a good mileage base, you need ot mix in some tempo. You can recover from a couple tempo efforts a week without much trouble and not risk injury, compared to faster intervals or threshold runs. Tempo forces you ot use good form. It’s a high speed cruise that’s faster than marathon pace, but a little slower than 1/2 Marathon cruising pace, which it almost threshold pace. If you use HR, if you Threshold is 170, Tempo would be around 150-160 depending on how your feeling and how far your runnign tempo.
I’d start at just 20 minutes, and build form there up to eventually doing 1 hour.
Honestly, if you enjoy running, tempo is fun. It’s elevated and a little uncomfortable, but it’s the pace where you start to really feel like your flying. For me, its’ where my run economy is probably the most efficient and it’s where you can really see your progress. Just 5 weeks ago where I was seeing 155bpm at a given pace, I’m now at 148. I’ve gained aerobic fitness as well as I think gained some economy. I also dropped 2-3 lbs. The benefits of dropping weight at amazing.
Great info!
I would tell you the same thing I would tell anyone trying to get faster. Its not just a matter of increasing your stride length. Its getting the strength and fitness to achieve that. The explosive power to push off more. The cardiovascular fitness to do so at the same cadence without immediately going into the red zone. The endurance to hold that for a long time.
And how do you do that? The same way anyone tries to get faster:
Runa lot. Run frequently and consistently. Put out a solid weekly volume of miles. Go hard anywhere from 1 to 3 (max) days per week. The other days should be easy. “Easy” means they leave you hungry for the hard days. When you go hard, work on short intervals (speed), long intervals (speed-endurance), and hills (strength). Mix it up. Race regularly.
As a runner, I’ve never worried about breathing patterns or my run cadence. I just run.
Two basic principles from Joel Freil’s TTB:
Increased cadence with the same length of stride
Increased length of stride with the same cadence.
(I suppose you could do both at the same time, providing a third option).
Sounds like you’ve got your cadence where you want it so you’ll likely have to look at increasing the distance you cover with your stride. The focus should be on pushing off harder for the longer stride, not reaching further in front and hitting your heel. Once you do this your cadence will likely want drop and you’ll have to work on keeping that.
Just my $0.02
This ^^
In order to increase stride distance, you have to 1) have the mobility to do so and 2) have the strength to do so. If you are pushing off harder, obviously you will fatigue faster. It is a long process, but be patient as you work at it.
Yup, lengthen your stride. Basically going farther which each stride. An easy way to way to think about this is to increase your knee drive and kick so if you about driving your knee higher on each stride it will lengthen your stride. Also lengthening your kick. Remember those ABC drills? I like to have my runners work on this on the track. Keep their normal stride in the corners but on the straights focus on getting that knee drive higher. You will feel the difference. Eventually it will transfer to your normal running if you practice it.
Run more.
Great info!
Just repeating what I learned on here along with my experience and what I’ve observed that seems to work.
My biggest concern now is focusing too much on my running and not enough on biking.
There are basically 2 variables to running. Stride Rate (cadence) and Stride Length. Both have limits and to increase your pace you have to increase one or both.
Running is a series of micro jumps. So to run faster you can increase the distance you jump. Usually this means to jump forward more and upward less.
First, do not worry about “lengthening your stride” or “improving your push off” while running. Running fast is all about running comfortably, and trying to do these things consciously will only make your running worse. With proper training, these things will happen naturally and take care of themselves.
The most important thing about becoming a runner is to run - a lot. That is, first and foremost, what you need to focus on. You don’t have to start putting in 90-100 miles weeks, but you should start running almost every day. As you have not done much running, you need to develop the muscle memory required to be a good runner. 40-50 miles per week is more than enough, and the winter is the best time to put in the miles. Don’t focus on your pace as much as getting the miles in. That being said, you’re not going to improve running 10:00 pace. Next, you need to focus on your efficiency and turnover which means drills, strides, and Flying 40s for now.
Drills help you develop your efficiency and your ability to feel the ground and be light on your feet. Here’s a link that should be pretty helpful to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhzzpZVMtl4
In addition to these drills, plyometric drills such as bounding, explosive lunges and skips, and strides should be done 2-3 times per week.
Next, there really is a difference between cadence and turnover. You can run at 10:00 or 6:00 pace while still holding 90 rpms. The simple truth is that in order to run fast, you must run faster. If you have a goal pace in mind for your 10k, say 6:00, you need to get work done running at that pace (EVENTUALLY). That being said, you must also do lots of over/under paced work. The point of over paced work is what would be your tempo zone. This is what makes you stronger and improves your ability to sustain hard efforts and is arguably the most important workout of your week. If you can only do one workout, your tempo is it - it is your bread and butter. The point of under paced work is to work on your turnover and train your body to run FAST. When you are used to doing workouts running well under 6:00, your body no longer feels like 6:00 is fast. Does that make sense? To start with getting your legs turning over, Flying 40s are the best.
With my runners, we started every season with Flying 40s on the track and used them throughout the season to maintain that turnover - in a 100m straightaway, the first 30m is ramping up your pace, the middle 40m should be top speed, and the final 30m is coasting down. The middle 40m should be FAST (about 95-98% effort) - you always want to remain in control. After each one, walk/jog back to the start to get a full recovery and start again. You should do 4 your first time out and work up to 10. You should do this twice a week for about 3-4 weeks while still maintaining your normal runs. You should notice after a month that your turnover is faster and smoother, and you will see an improvement in the pace of your normal runs.
Right now, you’ve got to focus on building your mileage and doing your drills and Flying 40s. Don’t worry about workouts or anything else. The time for that is later. Your focus now is becoming a runner. I’d be happy to talk more about your training - there’s way too much to type. Just shoot me a PM if you have any questions. What kind of time table are you looking at as far as a goal race?
Speed= stride length x stride rate
You could get faster by improving your running economy via hills, plyos, and sprints. Increasing your endurance would do the same.
Your stride will get longer and your rate will increase the fitter you get. Stride rate changes much less than stride rate based on speed.
The vast majority of people naturally select the stride rate and length that optimizes running economy. That means you should worry about getting more fit instead of overthinking how you run.
I would like to know how to get faster once leg turnover has already been worked on.
The answer is in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wluqhoE821c
.
The key to running is running. Fast, slow, up, down, long, short, etc.
Don’t overthink it. Running is absurdly simple.
Speed= stride length x stride rate
You could get faster by improving your running economy via hills, plyos, and sprints. Increasing your endurance would do the same.
Your stride will get longer and your rate will increase the fitter you get. Stride rate changes much less than stride rate based on speed.
The vast majority of people naturally select the stride rate and length that optimizes running economy. That means you should worry about getting more fit instead of overthinking how you run.
I do firmly believe in naturally selecting stride length and stride rate, but I think for some people stride length can be adversely affected by flexibility, which is something that can be changed independently of fitness. If your hip flexors/psoas are tight, then your foot will toe-off earlier than it would if these muscles were more flexible, resulting in a shorter stride length, correct? You’ll also toe-off with your leg at a higher angle relative to the ground than you would if these were more flexible, resulting in greater vertical oscillation, and a smaller percentage of force being directed in the forward direction. This also puts the leg in the portion of the stride where the glutes can drive harder and for more time in the forward direction. I see this type of modification as being distinct from making active modifications to the footstrike phase of the stride, where any active attempts to lengthen the stride would result in a tendency toward heel striking and a footstrike forward of the CG…