Have read most of Daniels Running Formula, find it a great help for planning and a good read. However, Vdot tables can seem like a wall to ambition. How much upwards mobility is there realistically? Is there a practical limit?
My story: Former swimmer, self coached runner later in life with no formal run training, progressively increasing running mileage and performance over the last 5 yrs, has only moved me about 6 Vdot points. Most improvement in first ~3 yrs. Current Vdot consistent for 5k-10k-1/2 mara. With an apparent decline in performance gains, even with more/smarter workouts, I get the impression that I’ll peak maybe 1 to 2 points above my current VDOT. Is this realistic? Is it consistent with others experience that there is some kind of hard-wired limit to each of us spelled out on these tables? Should I bother to set lofty lifetime goals that the tables show are unrealistic (like < 3hr marathon)?
There is always a limit, but it is often beyond what you think it might be. If you are physically able to run more miles per week than you are currently doing, you haven’t hit your limit yet. I got a big boost when I moved from ~40 to >70 miles per week over the course of three cycles of marathon training. I’m not running that much at present because I’m back to more balanced tri training, but it gave me a taste of what could be if I only ran and ran as much as I could.
C, H, N, O, Ca, k, some trace elements, probably too much lead and mercury - accounts for slow brain deterioration!
Actually, I’m 5’11’', ~165 lbs, with some upper body from swimming, so pretty trim, I feel unwell and hungry 24/7 if I get much less - so not much weight to lose without losing muscle. Started running ~180 lbs or so. I’m 45, starting running when I was 40 and tri’ing at 43.
But the question wasn’t necessarily just about me, I presume others have similar experiences?
So there is hope huh? Still, there must be a point where declining gains and increasing work suggest you really aren’t going to improve another VDOT point.
Personally summary: < 20 mpw 1st year, max runs 6 mi., 5th year, currently 40-60 mpw, max runs 18 mi., only moved 6 Vdot points over this time/distance, only 1 Vdot point the last year of increases.
Lotso hope!! Without knowing how detailed your run training planning has been in the past, based on the info you have posted I think you have at least five more years of opportunity to improve before your athletic age and actual age start to collide. (Maybe more since you’re not just running.) How many VDOT points that ends up being remains to be seen. But you’re still in primary school as far as running goes. Think how fast you’ll be when you’re a “senior in high school”.
(Nice answer on body comp, btw. Hopefully there’s a little Na in there, too…)
too old to be worrying about run speed, really, but it beats worrying about things you can’t control at all.
I’m 45. Have been run training smarter/better the last couple of years and have only moved 1 Vdot point the last year. But did increase range to 1/2 mara so some improvement endurance wise.
My swimming has been going downhill since age 19, does amaze me that running improvements can still be had for late starters.
Have read most of Daniels Running Formula, find it a great help for planning and a good read. However, Vdot tables can seem like a wall to ambition. How much upwards mobility is there realistically? Is there a practical limit?
Body comp is good. At 60 miles per week, your volume is pretty good. Well above average. Maybe it is time for a focused interval progression to try to add some speed. Have you worked with a good coach? Might be worth a shot. At least for a half a season.
I’d really love to get it up to 60+ if at all possible.
That’d be all the run speed I’d ever need, which at over 40 is pretty decent, at least by Tri standards.
Naturally as you get closer to your genetic limits, there will be a major law of diminishing returns as far as improvements going forward. But, this year at least, I made a very significant uptick in run performance, much moreso than I expected, quite honestly.
My run improved more from '06 to '07 than it did from '05 to '06.
That’s why I at least hope I may have a bit more upside room before I start hitting the ceiling.
YMMV.
“2. You need to get fit before worrying about getting fast.
If 13 year old kids can swim 4:37 for a 400 with no speed-work, then you really need to question how appropriate speedwork is for you as a sub-elite long course athlete. As Gordo’s progression shows, the key to continual improvement in VDOT (& VO2max) is a consistent application of aerobic volume, not “bleed from the eyeballs” intervals. G’s fitness reached Sweetenham’s criteria for the inclusion of focused speedwork in 2003, when he was an 8:46 Ironman!”
I see Gordo and “the lads” say this kind of thing frequently. What’s your take?
I think there’s improvement for my VDOT–I don’t run that much. 40-55mpw year round. That’s not a lot.
Which leads to a slightly different question and is very much related to the original question… Is it really not that much? For an IM athlete, that kind of volume year 'round is pretty damn good, imho. My experience is that most people are doing less – more like 30 - 45mpw. I happen to fall within the 35 - 50mpw range but that’s not even year round. I’m lower during off-season early general prep if run is not a focus that year (which it hasn’t for a long time).
Unclerock, I’m in a very similar situation (ie 5 years). Running plateaued at least 2 years ago. All of my running has been/was limited to steady state for the most part with a slight volume increase each of the 1st 3 years until I hit the numbers above. I don’t have time in my schedule for more volume so I think Mike P’s suggestions are dead on. At some point intensity has to be added as volume becomes time constrained. Assuming you have 6 years of consistent steady-state running under your belt then you clearly have the durability to add intensity and the change in training protocol is probably overdue.
Which leads to a slightly different question and is very much related to the original question… Is it really not that much? For an IM athlete, that kind of volume year 'round is pretty damn good, imho. My experience is that most people are doing less – more like 30 - 45mpw. I happen to fall within the 35 - 50mpw range but that’s not even year round. I’m lower during off-season early general prep if run is not a focus that year (which it hasn’t for a long time).
Don’t you think that if you focused on running that you’d run faster? I think you would. I also think that if you focused only on cycling or swimming that you’d be better at those, too.
Don’t know my VO2max, my current VDOT is right at 50, but I’ve never been tested for anything - with my mediocre running ability never thought it was worth it.
60 mpw is what I’m doing right now, with almost no swimming and biking, but yearly average is more like 35 mpw over the last year.
Was thinking about adding interval work this week! Coach sounds like too much effort, though no doubt would help as you suggest, but doesn’t fit my B+ type personality.
Holy socks! I’d be pretty damn happy to get mine up to 54 so I’d actually have a shot at breaking 3 hrs in a marathon, just doesn’t seem possible with the uplift from a year of lots of running - didn’t expect miracles but thought to see more than 1 VDOT increase.
edited quote:
"My V.Dot went from <49 at the tail end of '04, to 58+ this past Spring.
I’d really love to get it up to 60+ if at all possible.
That’d be all the run speed I’d ever need, which at over 40 is pretty decent, at least by Tri standards. "