Run More. But Bench Press Less. Why?

Triathlon Forum
1

Has anyone figured out exactly why an increase in running distance or endurance causes your chest, arms and tricep muscles to weaken or atrophy in weighlifting, reducing your bench press limits. Now, I am assuming this is true, but I don’t know for a fact, because it happens to me, and I have read cautions about the value of weighlifting here.

There is an interesting article in one of the triathlete magazines this summer about the fellow who was chosen to train for the Hawiaa Ironman. He said he wanted to do triathlons and increase his bench press to 320 pounds. One of the triathlete mentors who was to train him for the ordeal, said, “He’ll be lucky to lift 115 pounds by the time we get through with him.”

Why does this happen?

Here’s what happens to me. I normally do, every two days: 12X135, 10x185, 8x205 on the flat bench, which is not very much. Okay. If I then throw in a 12 to 14 miler on a run, on the days I don’t lift, even if all under 70% MHR, if I go back to the bench press the next day, I can baerely do the 12x135, but that’s about it. My shoulders and chest start wobbling or quivering a bit.

This reduction phenomenon occurs also in bicep curls, and leg presses. Not surprisingly, a day after weightlifiting also causes burn out in the swimming pool, and vice versa. In fact, I have learned not to swim and then go immediately weight lift. Both activities to me reduce the effectiveness of each other. I have almost come to the conclusion that core exercises, whether done with high reps, low weight, or low reps, high weight, either way, and weightlifting in general for the triathlete, is a global impediment to both fitness, speed and endurance. There may be targeted exceptions for this for people with weak quads or backs, which need isolated help.

I can see how core exercises could fatigue a body for swim training, but why running? To me, when we are running, from an upper body perspective, we are swinging our arms and there is energy there, expended in the muscles, but it defies common sense to me how a mere 2 hours of running or so, would eat into your upper physique like that. Is the running eating into muscle, instead of loose fat? Why?

2

I think Roch and Huddle meant he wouldn’t be doing a whole lot of lifting during his training, not that the training affected his lifting. I bench 3x week but I don’t try to put on muscle mass. I’ve never heard of someone loosing muscle because of endurance training. There is a pretty big debate whether triathletes should lift weights. IMO I think if your tri-ing for general health reasons, not necessarily to win, weight lifting is essential.

3

Boy, hate to disagree with you here, but I definitely lost muscle in the upper body, after doing say a half marathon and after last summer of running and not lifting. It’s noticeable.

It’s clearly noticeable to me that just by looking at long distance runners, who have muscle “definition” in their arms and legs, but very little muscle in their upperbody. There’s clearly something going on reducing the upper body mass. And, yes, actually reducing muscle.

4

Do you think they’re actually losing muscle because of the endurance sports or are they just simply not lifting?

5

I agree with you Booth, although I don’t really know why.

Ask any body builder what they think about distance running… for them it’s the kiss of death.

6

I might not have much to offer here, no studies, only personal experience. That and what I have read from Slowman and a good interview article in Outside magazine w/ Mark Allen http://outside.away.com/magazine/0298/9802mark.html So if I am full of it call me out. I also believe I read something in Men’s Health, so take it for what its worth, that endurance sports and weight lifting just don’t mix. Remember the recommended weekly cardio work is 3x30 mins.

I think the key to weight training and triathlon is maintenance. You need to lift weights to maintain, tone and prevent injury. But if you’re trying to put on muscle good luck. Probably won’t happen. The Use of slow twitch and fast twitch fibers don’t coincide too well.

Personally I fluctuate up to 15lbs a year. Which I think is a lot because I am ‘lean’ (147-162lbs). Right now I am trying to put weight on so I have something to lose this summer training for IMFL. This means right now lots of hours in the weight room and fewer on the bike/running.

I think what you are seeing in regards to swimming, and maybe running, and weight lifting has to do with the constant use of the upper body. Swimming is similar to doing toning work. Little weight, lots of reps. Look at a swimmer who puts in LOTS of laps but little weight work. Broad shouldered right? Theoretically you get a good upper body workout is you swim enough. I am sure the same relates to the quads. Look at the lags of a dedicated roadie.

And no, from my understanding, the body will not burn muscle for fuel. But I will burn protein if carbs are depleted. After any workout, aerobic or anaerobic, you need to refuel your carbs. It takes alot more and a longer longer to do this then you would imagine. If you are not eating enough this might be part of your problem.

Hope this helps, but I am very interested in this topic also.

Ed

7

How’s your nutrition?

If you’re going to do both you are going to need a ton of ingested (consumed) protein. Generally strength trainers shoot for 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight. If you’re doing endurance and strength training and want to hold onto every pound of hard-earned muscle (as I do), then you may need to bump up the daily consumed protein.

You want your body to use the ingested protein for energy (once carbs are used up) rather than breaking down your muscle into protein which can be used to synthesize carbohydrates.

It can get a lot more complicated that than, but that is essentially it. Eat more protein so your body “burns” (non-scientific term) the ingested protein rather than protein from broken down muscle. Essentially the same concept as dieting … when people cut calories, they usually cut foods that contian a good deal of protien, so their protein intake is less, which means their body uses some muscle to make energy. The result s they “lose weight”, and some of that weight is muscle. So, they end up looking the same as they did before, only lighter … when they wanted to keep all the muscle, lsoe the fat, and loked “ripped”.

IMO, at some point with long endurance training, there comes a point (I don’t know exactly when that is) when ingested protein is not adequate to balance out the “burning” of muscle, and some muscle loss will ensue.

As far as the “day after strength decreases”, lets keep in mind that strength is not only “muscular and skeletal”. 2 more major aspects are involved … energy production, and nervous system (neuromuscular relationships). If you’re “drained” (again, non-scientific term) and your body is focusing on repair, then it’s not going to shift its resources towards something that is “non essential” like momentary lifting strength.

IMO, a lot of this can be corrected or minimized through nutrition (which sometimes includes supplementation). If you’re interested, we can talk further, and if you have questions I cannot answer I’ll find the answer and post it.

8

Here’s what happens to me. I normally do, every two days: 12X135, 10x185, 8x205 on the flat bench, which is not very much. Okay. If I then throw in a 12 to 14 miler on a run, on the days I don’t lift, even if all under 70% MHR, if I go back to the bench press the next day, I can baerely do the 12x135, but that’s about it. My shoulders and chest start wobbling or quivering a bit.

this is pretty simple…recovery - you aren’t getting enough. You might not think 8 reps at 205 is that much, but from personal experience, I know very few people pushing that much weight. And if you are trying to bench Monday, run 12-14 on Tuesday and bench again on Wed, you haven’t given yourself enough recovery. You’re body is beat by Wed.

I know when I was lifting a lot, I would lift chest maybe twice a week with at least 4 days rest between workouts.

You’re body is telling you that it’s tired. Try cutting back on the weight if you have to lift chest on a Mon/Wed. split.

9

Your explanation for what you’re experiencing is rational, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the case - i.e. that there’s something about running that causes upper body muscular atrophy. Chances are that most runners simply don’t lift weights for their upper body (what would be the point?) and that is why you see so many runners with no significant upper body musculature.

Incidentally, I’m able to actually increase my bench more when I run regularly as opposed to when I don’t run regularly. I’m a thin guy (6’ and about fighting weight of 153lbs) and I’ve done my best benching (as well as all weight lifting) in the midst of running (prior to getting involved in triathlon).

It’s possible that your body is still very taxed from your run the previous day (esp. if you’re doing 2 hours), and that may be the reason why you see a decrease in your lifting ability.

10

I believe it is due to increased cortisol levels that are a result of increased endurance exercise activity (the cortisol is a response to “stress”). I remember several relatively recent studies on it. I’ve noticed the same thing in my own training.

I am a former fairly competitive weightlifter (I’ve been weight-training for 20+ years), and my strength is always inversely proportional to the amount of running/biking I do, even when I take bodyweight changes out of the question. Bottom line - the more I run/bike, my benchpress drops (as well as my other lifts). This is also independent of training time, meaning that when I reduce my running/biking time, my increased strength is not due to more “lifting” time. I’ve been keeping pretty detailed records on all my training (daily body weight, one-rep maxes, training programs, running data, HR data, etc.) for many years (weightlifting/BW data going back 20 years, running/biking/HR data only for the last 7 years, when I started this stuff.). My guess is that the inverse relationship (more running = weaker) is due ultimately due to the additive stress placed on the body (as reflected in cortisol).

11

Everybody.

I’ll be honest. I weightlift, not to strenghthen any “core muscles.”

I do it for reasons of vanity and for some small, stopgap prevention of the “Stickman” look. This is malaprop. I have made up this term to describe skinny toned endurance athletes. I am now ironcially mocking myself.

It dawned on me the other day, have I myself become a Stickman, a “Stickman,” which is basically an emaciated but dedicated endurance runner’s or cyclist’s physique. I’m sorry I just don’t. It’s lean. Yeah, little fat…got rid of that…but…hey, I’m Stickman."

I wouldn’t be so bad if I was like a “fast Stickman.” I might could accept it. And, it goes without saying, you can’t be a fast Stickman until you become, first, a Stickman. Or Stickperson, I know we have some women triathletes who post here. Sorry.

My goal is to do a half ironman this summer. Probably do Memphis in May. I’ve done one tri sprint. Really like this stuff, just started it, fixing to plop down a bunch of money on a new bike, problem is, I’ve noticed, this stuff will turn you into a stick, if you really, I mean really, keep adding and adding, training like many of you do. I have gone from “Honey, be back in about 30 minutes, going to go jog”…a year and a half ago, to “Hey, going out to run, be back in about 2 hours.”

I have gone from 218, at 6’2 to 180. Only the weight room keeps me from turning into “Stickman.” I can hardly bench press what I used to BP or lift. I just can’t. I’ve tried all the protein, whey stuff, for 2 months. Don’t gain anything.

In my opinion, if you properly train for this stuff, you will be a Stickman, and there is nothing, and I emphasize nothing, which can stop it.

12

I had a work colleague who moved to Hawaii and got into triathlon after years of being a competitive bodybuilder. Guy was built like a tank. Really got into tri’s and before you know it, had done a 4:45 Keauhou Half IM. I’m sure he lost some weight and bulk but all through his tri-career here he still looked pretty much like a stud – and I dont’ think he lifted heavy at all. I’m sure genetics plays a role in all of this too…

Anyway, long story short – he overtrained (was really trying to get on the Navy Ironman team for Kona) and suffered a hip injury (might have been a femoral neck stress fracture, doctors never really were sure). The guy was, as I said, all muscle and a lot of it, maybe 5’10" and 185,and I’m sure the weight was tough on his joints. Tried to train through the pain – not good. Three years later he can no longer run and he is scheduled to get a hip replacement (has put it off till now due to his job). Ouch ouch ouch.

Not sure of the moral of the story – but I think it’s safe to say that if you don’t want to be a “stickman” you increase your chances of getting injured in this world of endurance athletics and/or you won’t get really really fast. Having said that, I continually get my skinny okole severely kicked in tri’s and Xterra Maui by a fellow 45-49 age-grouper who looks like (and probably can) bench and squat twice his body weight. So who knows…

5’10 and 155 lbs (but with a 2:40 marathon PR)

13

Try creatine. Worked like a charm for me when I used to lift, even when running high mileage. My problem was running the day after lifting heavy. My pecs would bounce up and down and when I was really sore I would have to hold them during runs. I caught some serious sh*t for that.

Anyway, I’m going through something similar right now. I used to be an avid weight lifter. Frequently, someone would come up to me in the gym and try to recruit me for a natural bodybuilding contest(now you know there’s some serious doping going on in a sport when there’s a natural division). I had worked for years to get away from my highschool nickname of QTip. When playing basketball, people would call me “big man.” I loved it.

I started running but hung on to lifting for a long time, gradually cutting back for years until I decided I wanted to get good at triathlon. My swim coach told me I had to get out of the gym if I was ever going to improve. I stopped lifting altogether. A couple of days ago, my mom told me I didn’t look good, that I’d lost too much weight. I weighed myself and was shocked. I’m the lightest I’ve been in 15 years. I’m almost at high school weight. Somehow I’ve lost 10 lbs. since the end of the race season.

I immediately went to the gym. At 205lbs, I would bench 12 x 225, 10 x 245, 6 x 265. Squat 12 x 275, 10 x 315, 6 x 365. Tuesday, at ~167 lbs. I benched sets of 95, 115, and 135. I squatted barely more than that.

So, I’m also fighting becoming the stickman. I’m staying off the creatine, though. That stuff puts WAY too much muscle on me. Granted, I’m getting damn fast, but there’s got to be a balance somewhere.

14

Bench presses are worthless in the sport of triathlon…The first question one must ask is “what is my primary objective?” Think of it like this, if I’m building a super-fast race car I know I want to keep it as light as possible. Next, were do I want to put most of the weight; in the engine, or on some sexy leather interior with a kicking sound system? Bench presses add weight to the chest, triceps and have little value for triathlons (but look manly). I would want to stay as light as possible and then focus my weight on the engine…Legs, heart, and blood volume.

When I was 19 I could bench 315 lbs three times…Which is totally useless for any cardiovascular sport! I recognized this early on when I was on the rowing team in college. I shifted my focus from weight training based to a program that is cardiovascular based. Of course I lost weight. Today, I only do push-ups 40 x 3 sets and light bench presses with only 100 lbs for 15 reps for tone and muscular endurance.

Forget bench presses, there useless for 75% of all sports and focus on your engine.

Dave from VA

16

I’m using bench press as merely one of the weightlifting problems. Endurance running and biking reduces squatting amounts, and curling, and, you name it, it’s reduced, at least, for me it is, and it looks like others in this thread. Also, I’m not saying weightlifting the bench press or heavy squats or bicep curls is “good for triathlon” training. I agree that it is not. Now, somebody is going to get on here, today or tommorrow and point out “the middle way,” that you can do both. We gave yet to hear from the “middleists”.

My point is, to me, triathlon training or endurance running reduces weightlifting muscles, in my opinion. There’s a poster up there in this thread talking about this, saying its related to cortisol. It’s the whole set of weightlifting.

As for Navy Seals and what not, I don’t know about that. They are in shape obviously but most of their forte’s are in blowing up shit with explosives.

So…and I’d probably bet for boxers and football players and K1 fighters over a Seal. By the way, there are some big Seals.

Sorry. Sure there are some tough ones. As a general rule, however, if you are a Stickman 145er, and can run like the energizer bunny, wield a knife like Samari Sammy, and can kick like Bruce Lee, you can be tough as nails, but will still get your ass kicked by the bigger guy with the bigger arms and chest and neck, etc. I’m not talking about a fatass blubber monster, I’m talking about a NCAA DIV 1 linebacker frame. Not all the times, but most of the time. You will get pounded if you can be caught. It’s true. And many of them can outrun you up to mile 2. Okay. Yesterday, our whole network had a feast day, tracking these kinds of freaks.