Wondering if anybody could answer me a question about run interval training.
I am using the book “Run Less, Run Faster” as a guide for how to structure my intervals (Pace, Distances, Reps, & Rest Interval duration).
So, for example, today I did a 15 min Warmup, then a 5x1k @ 6:22 (per mile) pace, with 1/4 rest interval. This is the proscribed interval workout on week 13 for 3:30 marathon time.
I found I could barely squeeze out the 1000 meters at the 6:22 per mile pace. Finished each work set and promptly collapsed, gasping for air. After I recovered, I would leisurely walk the remainder of the 1/4 mile before beginning the next gut busting 1k.
So, my question is:
When doing intervals, is it more effective to run the active session at such a pace as to be able to barely hold it and then have a fairly long recovery before beginning next one. Or is it more effective to slightly slow down (maybe run 6:30’s) so that I could be able to jog the recovery sessions? Or does it even make a difference?
How did you select your paces? Based on your goal time or based on your actual level of performance in a recent race/training session?
How did you find the speed work in the prior 3 weeks?
I’m using the same program (the half version right now) and did that exact workout this morning. I’m a lot slower than you but my intervals are in the ‘very hard’ category but I am able to fully recover jogging between each one and finish them all without issue.
go to find a pace calculator ( McMillan) and determine the pace that is best for you. I think that will help.
was the point of the session to be tempo training? If that is the case it is important that you actually run the distance at a comfortably hard pace and not be exhausted by the workout. It is not a problem to take a bit more recovery if you need it to get the interval done.
If the point is to fatigue you over the course of the workout with the repetitions then don’t extend the recoveries and each repetition should feel harder than the one before. By the last rep you should be feeling pretty hammered.
Are you starting each rep to fast?
I just checked Mcmillan…He has reps nearly 45 seconds per Km slower that what you are attempting for a 330 marathon.
A 5 x 1k workout should be really hard. I think these kinds of workouts are one of the best ways to get faster, although for marathon training pure mileage may be more important. If you can do all the 1k’s at the same speed or negative split them then your pace is appropriate. If not, slow down.
I ran a 45 flat 10k last weekend, a hilly half-mary in april in 1:42ish. Mcmillan points to the 3:35 range for marathon. That’s quite a bit faster than I have ever run a marathon (~18 minutes) but I have seen significant performance gains in the last 6 months since then and don’t think that’s unreasonable. I’m thinking train for a 3:30, run a 3:35 and finish comfortably and happy. Don’t know how practical that is though.
Just trying to get a feel for how “easy” the rest intervals should be between the work sets. Running a 6:22 pace and walking for 5 minutes is a far cry from doing the same 6:22 pace and jogging a 10:00 pace for 1/4 mile. And more specifically, if it is better to run super-hard with long rest interval or run hard with only a short rest interval.
I think the key to any interval workout is the recovery period. Whether you jog, walk, stumble, or gallowalk, IMO, isn’t as important as following the prescribed rest interval.
If you can do this, and you can maintain the target pace for the entire workout, you’re good – as long as you’re moving forward during the rest/recovery period. I.e. no stopping, sleeping, or puking.
As others have said, you’re going way too fast. Are you sure that’s what the program calls for? A 3:30 marathon is about an 8:00 pace. Running 1K repeats at the pace you’ve indicated doesn’t seem particularly useful. In light of your recent 10K time it also doesn’t seem very effective.
As far as the interval, what does the program say? Typically the recovery should last no longer than the work period and usually it’s shorter. Recovery is generally indicated in a program as either a certain distance or time.
FWIW, I’ve run sub 3:30 and never did a workout remotely close to this. Don’t know that I even could if I tried.
I was able to hold relatively constant splits for the 5x1ks.
6:26, 6:23, 6:19, 6:24, 6:19
I did not do the previous 3 weeks of the training as my agenda was focused on a 10k and sprint triathlon (5th overall woot!).
As far as what the training program says, it says 1/4 mile “easy” rest intervals. I have no fricking idea what that means. I’m entirely self-coached and although I read a crap-ton about this stuff I don’t have a good sense of what that means with reference to this program. I have seen significant improvements in my running since I adopted this book a year ago and I love how it fits within the framework of the multi-sport lifestyle. I do know the Yasso 800’s I’d be running a bit slower (7:00/mile pace) and then a nice jog, i.e., no walking.
Sounds like most of the folks replying who are running that kind of speed during marathon aren’t running that fast during intervals. That’s a pretty solid data point, and I appreciate it. Thanks!
Well, if you read a crap ton, you should add Daniel’s Running Formula. It explains different types of speed workouts, why you would use different rest intervals, and what pace you should be doing the different types of workouts at given your previous race performances.
Your 1K pace corresponds to a 20:10 5K if I recall (looked earlier). Your 10K results seems a little slower than that (21:42 5K) so I think you can likely back the speed work paces off a bit.
Someone mentioned training at the pace you can run now, not the pace you want, to avoid injury. That’s good advice.
At least you’re more or less descending the 1k intervals. For a marathon, I think doing more of them ~ 6-8 at a slower pace (that you can still descend) would be more valuable training for that distance.
How are the legs? Any sign of injury? I often see people who are working a bit too hard like this sidelined with injury. How is your form at the end of the workout? Are you over striding (reaching trying to hold that pace)? Perhaps you can have someone tape ypur first interval and your last. Take a look at your form. Sounds a bit too fast to me. Better to do tham a few seconds too slow than one second too fast.
You should feel strong enough to do one or two more at the end and not cut your cool down too short.
I’d say you (or the program) has the wrong pace range for the interval length. Consider its going to take you over 4 minutes for 1K, you’re in the realm of V02 effort and you ought to be doing these just under 5K pace at most (and that is still a hard effort). That puts you around 6:48 pace given your 45:00 10K using a Daniels calculation. You’re doing a pace that is usually used for 60-90 second speed intervals, so I’m impressed you even completed the workout. Did you sandbag the 10K time?
For the recovery period, I go about 2 minutes for V02 intervals, at which point I feel “ready” to do another one. Personally, I just fast walk - I’ve read a study that keeping the blood pressure from dropping to much helped one to maintain the effort level of subsequent efforts, so basically you don’t want to just stand still between efforts. I walk, rather than jog, just because it reduces the total amount of pounding.
Again, I’d recheck the program and what you calculated the pace to be. It looks awfully fast - I run my 4 minute intervals at 6:05 pace and I’m a just under 40:00 10K / 1:30 half speed for straight up running races ( or for more comparison, 6:20 pace for sprint tri). But I do like the basis of the FIRST program (which is what the runner’s world program is based off).
When I saw the name of the book I actually spit my coffee all over my keyboard. “Run Less, Run Faster” epitomizes the logic that lead to the US and Europe sucking at distance running in the 90’s. I can guarentee there aren’t any east africans using that logic. Running a marathon, or really anything over the 800, has a lot to do with running economy and efficiency. The only way to get that is to run more. Sorry, no shortcuts.
Now that being said, I googled the book and read a little bit about it. One thing they do have right is that each week has three key workouts - intervals, tempo, and long run. That’s bread and butter run training right there. The big question is, what are you doing on the other days? The correct answer should be: ‘as much easy running as possible’ (on grass and trails if possible). People don’t get injured from easy mileage, they get injured from increasing volume or intensity too fast, running with bad form (overstriding usually), existing muscle imbalances, or ignoring small aches/pains.
In all honestly, running 5x1k at 90 seconds faster than your 5k pace pace may be useful if you’re training for a 5k, but it’s not gonna do much for your marathon time. The fact that you were able to complete that workout, yet ran a 45 min 10k, and your marathon falls off more - tells me that you don’t need more/faster interval work, you simply need to run more, as endurance, not speed, is clearly your limiting factor.
If you get a chance, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to go and time yourself for a mile, and plug that into a prediction calculator. If you’re way off in your longer race times - lets say it predicts a sub 40 10k or something… then you’ve learned something important about yourself - that you need to work on endurance more than speed.
Seems paradoxical, “Run Less, Run Faster”. I’m not really here to sell the book, but the short version is that
a) this is NOT a training program for elite marathoners.
b) Many AG’ers overtrain the run and end up injured thereby limiting their long-term endurance over the course of their several-decade-long-career.
c) Why do a bunch of junk easy miles running when you could substitute in some high-intensity Swim or Bike?
Book says that the running is 3x week and cross-train 2x week.
I’m doing more like cross training 6x week (3 bikes & 3 swims) and occasionally throw in another easy jog mid-week or post-brick. Really just using the book as a reference for my interval work (paces, intervals, etc) these days. I’ve ordered the daniel’s book. Thanks for the recommendation!
To give a breakdown the interval paces for a 3:30 marathon per this book is:
400 m: 6:16 per mile
600 m: 6:22 per mile
800 m: 6:25 per mile
1000m: 6:28 per mile (Guess I must have miscalculated this one yesterday…no wonder was so hard!)
1200m: 6:33 per mile
1600m: 6:41 per mile
2000m: 6:45 per mile.
…
1000m: 6:28 per mile (Guess I must have miscalculated this one yesterday…no wonder was so hard!) …
Ha! Yes, that will do it.
FWIW you & I are in just about the same boat, using the FIRST program for a 3:30 marathon.
As for the track w/os I find I am baffed enough after the 1ks & 1200s that I sometimes resort to walking for the first 100m or so of recovery but then try to resume a jog up to the line for the next one. When I’m done, I’m happy to stop(!) but think there’s another repeat or two in me, usually.
I have seen great improvement with this program, but like the others said, you don’t want to go beyond a reasonable goal & estimated interval speeds. If it helps at all, I have a 42:50 10k and several 1:38-1:40 HMs behind me, and hitting the times hasn’t been unreasonable or injurious. Exhausting, but not unreasonable!