has anyone here had their tubular tire “roll-off” or personally know someone who this has happened to? Beloki and “I heard about a guy that happened to in a crit once” do not count. If so, do you think this happened because of poor or inexperienced tire mounting or because, like beloki, you were doing 40mph switchback descent on molten ashphalt? Did this cause you to switch to clinchers? Most people on TDs thread cited price or convenience in favor of clinchers but for me it would be the thought of a high-speed roll-off a la beloki. Should not inexperienced tub riders have their tires mounted by LBS? Or is the risk really overstated?
Also, I had a question about the recent (i assume) development of all-carbon tubular wheels (e.g., forthcoming Hed carbonlite disc and H3) (I think all-carbon clinchers are still being worked on). Are these all-carbon wheels going to make all-carbon wheels w/ alloy rims obsolete? Is someone in the market for a disc now who can afford it insane not to wait for the carbonlite disc? Based on Hed prices I dont think price is that much different and will surely come down as production gets underway, and getting rid of alloy rims creates a rotational-weight savings of about 200g per wheel and of course has no dissimilar material bonding issues. Or is there any reason (apart from cost) to prefer the alloy rim? For instance, I was thinking maybe the strength limits of carbon fiber mean that these all-carbon wheels maybe prone to rim chips, cracks, etc. and have really short lives like a lot of other top end racing stuff.
Also, I hope Tom’s post was a prelude to another thoughtful, impartial and comprehensive review that will back up his stated preference for tubulars (presumably on alloy or carbon rims).
Thanks and have a good weekend!
“A man is not old until regrets take the place of his dreams” (from desotosport.com)
Part of the bad rap tubulars have gotten is from mall-stories about rolling tires.
More accurately, urban legends about gluing tires:
“It takes forty seven coats of shelac and twelve layers of glue applied in an argon gas environment on the third Wednesday of the month only by an uncircumszied Azherbigani with particualry acute vision…”
Basically, you put the glue on the rim, let it set ten minutes and put the tire on. Real complex…
That said, rolling a tire is a very real danger and not to be taken lightly. If you roll a tire you will fall, usually a serious crash.
The factors that lead to a rolled tire are:
Tire not glued, some people will unknowlingly ride a tubular with no glue. Huge mistake. Huge.
Inadequate glue- just didn’t put enough on. We use about 20 grams per 700c wheel and a little less on a 650c.
Improper glue- We only use Panaracer clear or Continental clear. No Fastack, no tubasti, no Vittoria.
Overheating of rim due to excessive braking which melts glue. This can also burst a clincher in extreme cases. On a long descent a nervous descender can smoke their brakes so much the heat softens the glue. This may have been a contributing factor to Joseba Beloki’s demise in the '03 Tour.
In my view, the benefits of the tubular tire so far outweigh clinchers in a racing environment there is no comparison:
Lighter weight.
Better ride quality (don’t feel the bumps as much).
Much more flat resistant contingent on tire choice.
Lower rolling resistance.
Much better traction and cornering, especially in wet weather and at high speeds.
Much faster tire changes during a race if you do flat (very rare) albeit the spare will not be securely glued so the rider must corner and descend with cuatio once the change has been made.
I have rolled a front tubular in what was arguably the worst crash I ever had. My chain broke in a sprint, I lost control, the front wheel turned 90°, and when I managed to get my head up my Hed front wheel (still round and true) had a half wrapped, half torn-apart Conti tire around 50% of it. The weekend before I had done a 4-corner crit with the same wheel, with WAY more braking/accelerations and the tire was rock solid.
I take it as a very peculiar incident. The same wheel had taken long descents and hard cornering without a single incident. I raced with tubbies about all my u23 life and take roll-offs as exceptions. Wouldn’t be afraid to train or race on any other tubular wheel so long as they were PROPERLY MOUNTED/GLUED.
For triathlons and time-trials it is a no-brainer. For road races have some more experienced rider/LBS inspect your work =)
SLOWTWITCH: How many triathlons are you able to do in a year? Is this a down year for you in participation?
GOVERNOR JOHNSON: It’s actually a down year. I slipped on my bike; I rolled a sew-up about four months ago and I really tweaked my knee. Technically, I have a sprained medial collateral ligament. Although I’ve done three this year, that really did it. I didn’t miss any training time; it’s getting better, and in another three to five months it’ll be completely OK.
SLOWTWITCH: Although we’re not qualified to poke holes in your drug or prison policy…rolling a sew-up, you should know better than that.
GOVERNOR JOHNSONn: I SHOULD know better than that, and riding sew-ups all this time, it’d never happened before, and then it happened. Wow. So, not enough glue, not enough attention to it, and since then, for the first time in my life, I’ve switched to clinchers.
Wait a minute. WTF? I slipped on my bike, I rolled a sew up and it was, bingo, about four months ago. And I took of my knee in the process (I still don’t have the full “cap” thingy because of that crash). What’s this with Johnson governor guy? I’m definetively missing something here…
And in another 3 to 5 months… bingo again. Or at least that’s the planned thing.
Yup. At the local races, there was one guy in particular who kept rolling his tire, even though it “was glued properly” Once he rolled it 20 yards from the start of a hill climb event, which takes all of a minute to do. It would have been funny, except that another time he rolled it during a road race and took me out as well, I happened to be working the race on my motorcycle, I crashed trying to avoid him.
CONCLUSIONS: THE CLINCHER VS. TUBULAR WAR
Tubulars - used to be capable of taking higher pressures, had lower weight
and mounted onto stronger, lighter rims than clinchers. Clinchers
have now largely caught up, but many cyclists thinking hasn’t.
Tubular tyre + rim combination still lighter and stronger.
- are easier to change than clinchers. This matters more to some
people than others - triathletes, mechanical morons and those
riding in unsupported races.
- cost megabucks if you replace them every time you puncture. However (and none of the North Americans mentioned this)
down here in Kiwiland, we always repair our punctured
tubulars (unless the casing is cut to ribbons). The process
doesn’t take much imagination, you just unstitch the case, repair
the tube in the normal manner using the thinnest patches you can
buy, stitch it back up again and (the secret to success) put a
drop of Superglue over the hole in the tread.
- can roll off if improperly glued or inflated. In this case, you
probably deserve what you get. Unfortunately, the riders behind
you don’t.
Clinchers - can be difficult to change (for mechanical morons) and are always
slower to change than tubulars. Most people still carry a spare
tube and do their repairs when they get home.
- are cheaper to run: if you puncture a lot clinchers will probably
still save you money over tubulars, even if you repair your
tubulars whenever possible. Tubulars are only repairable most
of the time, you virtually never write off a clincher casing due
to a puncture.
- have improved immensely in recent years; top models now inflate
to high pressures, and are lighter and stronger than they used
to be. Likewise clincher rims. Some debate over whether
tubulars are still lighter and tubular rims stronger. Probably
depends on quality you select. No doubt that high quality
clinchers/rims stronger, lighter and mor dependable than cheap
tubular/rim combination.
“3. Much more flat resistant contingent on tire choice.
4. Lower rolling resistance.
5. Much better traction and cornering, especially in wet weather and at high speeds.”
"Lies, all lies. "
Agreed, and I’d call bullet #2 a lie/myth as well.
Here is the arguement to end all arguements. tubulars and clinchers each have different strengths, and in typical slowtwitch poster fashion, i will list them without bias:
Tubulars:
- they are frictionless. Back when they were trying to develop a perpetual motion machine, they stumbled upon the secret to a frictionless wheel... but it only works with tubulars.
- because of the odd nature of the glue used in tubulars, at least once a day, the tire explodes and jumps right off the wheel. This happens whenever the tire and wheel are in contact with anything, even air.
- they are weightless. Most carbon wheel manufacturers now pump their wheels full of helium, making them actually lighter than air.
- they add power, and give you 10 mph more on flats... and a supermodel wife... who is swedish (dont care how i spelled it)
- average cost: lots, ex. for zipp 404 tubular, cost= GDP of Pakistan
Clinchers
- have a minimum of 10 lbs per wheel, and miraculously, all of it is out on the rim.
- They have never, since they were invented by the cavemen in northern italy, had a problem with a tire, especially not a blow out.
- If you are foolish enough to put these on for a race, the race organizers will either disqualify you for training during a race, or shoot you. But dont worry, they probably wont realize what you are doing because clinchers dont actually roll.
- they are free, people give them away as prizes in cereal boxes. zipp 404 clinchers, cost = one general mills UPC.
there you have it, the pros and cons of both clinchers and tubulars. But choose carefully, because once you choose one or the other, youre stuck with that choice for the rest of your life!
**VNR: **Will the tires ride like tubulars? SW: All I can say now is that because the tires don’t have the internal friction of a tube moving around inside them, they ride totally different then a standard tire/tube configuration. We’re hoping the racers we have testing them tell us they ride even better than a tubular.
It sounds like there is more to ride quality and rolling resistance, than the ability to inflate to higher pressures.
It also says that the new wheel/tire combo will most likely be heavier than current clinchers, but the weight penalty will be offset by the better ride quality. Which sounds like they are trying to make a glueless tubular ala TUFO, but with a lesser weight penalty.
As the quote from the article states, they were concerned with the internal friction between the tube and tire. Evidently, at least Michelin thinks that it contributes to rolling resistance and ride quality.
A while back I heard Stan Koziatek was working on a road tire version of his ‘NoTubes’ system. For Mtn Bikes, he has the UST system beat hands down in my opinion.
All tubeless systems’ resistance to pinch flatting is well documented, but Stan’s system offers lower weight and more importantly, you pretty much have to put a big cut in the tire’s sidewall to flat. His latex sealing fluid self-seals just about any hole in a mountain bike tire in seconds.
The possibility of using a standard, lightweight road clincher at 110 to 120 psi pressures, no tube, with self sealing capabilities sounds incredibly appealing to me. The only thing better than a fast tire change is no tire change at all.
I’ve been using Stan’s system on my mountain bike for over a year now with standard rims and tires. I’ve NEVER flatted since making the switch (and I ride a lot).
Hey, I’m just quoting what the guy from Michelin said. Personally, it sounds like they are trying to solve a problem that already has a solution, tubulars.
TUFO’s (which I ride) don’t have tubes, but that’s just nitpicking.
Here’s my roll off story. I have raced tubulars in approximately 20 crits and road races, hardly a lot and most were more than 12 years ago. I never had a problem during races, followed the recommended glueing methods. In fact removing my tires after a flat was major headache because my glue job held so well. Any way I was on a Lake Mendota (Madison, WI)fun time trial of about 20 miles cruising down University Ave, a 6 lane divided road that is pretty much always busy. I was staying as far to the right as possible to avoid becoming road kill when I veered slightly into the curb gutter and in an instant I was on my side and in a great deal of pain. The raised lip of the concrete (about 3/4 inch) matched up with the rim/tire joint and peeled it right off the rim in a split second. The tire caught in the fork, locked up the wheel, boom. I crawled out of traffic and inspected my injuries, hematoma on my quad the length of a football (beautiful colors for a month) and road rash from shoulder to wrist. Where the tire tore away from the rim the cloth tape was still attached so it may have been a cheap tire rather than a poor glue job. I’ve been a clincher guy since and if you guys can feel the difference in the ride of a tubular then more power to you. I can definately feel the difference of how much money is left in my wallet when I buy middle of the road quality clinchers vs tubulars.
VN: Will the tires be lighter than conventional road tires? SW: Again, we’re far off from consumer-version production, but I’ve been told the weight of our tubeless road tires will be either the same or just slightly more than a traditional tube/tire configuration. The special rim Mavic is working on might also be slightly heavier (because of the aggressive bead locks) than a traditional clincher rim. If there is any weight difference, that will be the small price to pay for the improved ride quality and slower/safer leakage in the case of a penetrating flat.