For 15k to marathon training I have found that my speedstars are just the right amount of shoe to get the job done comfortably. However, I’m finding that as the forefoot wears (faster than the heel), the heel-to-forefoot rise is getting uncomfortable. What was initially quoted as 10mm is more like 13-14mm (admittedly beyond the “typical” life of the shoe).
The larger angle seems to be putting added stress on my lower calves, and tightening everything up into my hamstrings. My flats (with ~3mm rise) can neutralize this effect, but my feet and legs aren’t nearly strong enough to do 4-5 hour road runs in 5 ounces of shoe. Conversely, running in my old 2130s (similar to platform heels) exacerbates the problem. Grinding down the heels of my speedstars was a thought, but the forefoot is worn to the point where stepping on anything larger than road grit may as well be barefoot - so they’re toast.
I’m looking for something like the kinvara (light, 4mm rise), but not the kinvara. The ride is nice, but I find the heel wrapping a bit excessive and the construction questionable for 60-70 mpw. I’d prefer to keep the weight low (< 9oz), but I’ll entertain anything up to 11-12oz. I’m really interested in the lower rise, and construction that won’t put me on a 60 day autoship plan.
You might want to consider the Newton Distance which is 8.6 oz for the men’s 9 (crowie’s shoe). It is $155 but lasts a very long time if you have an efficient gait. I wore mine in Badwater this year which pretty much totaled them, but only after 400 miles and some pretty aggressive road temps ~200F
The way I see it, you get way more miles per $ than a regular racing flat. Most flats only last a couple of races for my gait style, so the Newton is much better value AND has considerably more cushioning and energy return.
Most flats only last a couple of races for my gait style…
Interesting how much this can vary by person. I run almost exclusively in flats (Mizuno Universe, Nike Katana Racer, etc), including marathons, and need to replace them only every 800-1000 miles. I run in them until the outsoles have holes in them and they seem to get better with wear up to that point.
You indicated that you have an ‘efficient gate’. What does that mean specifically? And why does that cause flats to wear out after only a couple of races? And what do you mean by ‘races’ - ultras?
Also, is having considerably more cushioning a good thing? If so, in your opinion, why is that the case?
In my opinion, an efficient gait is one in which you have very few lateral or braking force on the ground, minimal rotational forces on the joints and minimal vertical motion.
With respect to shoe wear, this is mostly braking and accelerating, so in your case, you are demonstrating high efficiency by wearing your shoes out around 1,000 miles.
In addition, you most likely have conditioned your tissue and structure to cope with pounding on hard surfaces. Running efficiently also means you are running protectively, and your preference for low profile shoes with minimal cushioning indicates you are recruiting muscle and tendon and running with a natural gait (as if barefoot.)
I’m a fan of minimal footware, but with the caveat that most runners today do not have the strength in their structure and connective tissue to cope with the stress of running on man made surfaces.
Races in this context is a couple of marathon length runs, or more specifically around 50 miles. The source for this is the cushioning response of 10 mm of EVA foam (generous forefoot of a racing flat) after mechanical testing.
High cushioning in traditional shoes may not be a good thing since it requires soft foam which collapses under load. This will amplify errant biomechanics, which >90% of us have, causing increased joint rotation, inward force on the metatarsals and uneven pressure under the foot.
A high level of cushioning is only bad if the medium happens to be EVA foam. This is not the case with Newton shoes since the membrane technology maintains very high cushioning and firm support.
Seems you are one of the fortunate and/or patient and/or intelligent few who have built a strong biomechanics structure and excellent running form.
Ian Adamson
Newton Running
Dir. Research & Education
A shoe that fits your very good description is the Saucony type A4. Just google a picture of one.
edit: just looking at this review you might find interesting:
Somewhat lost in the heavy marketing being put into the Kinvara’s release was the recent release of another shoe by Saucony that might appeal even more to minimalist runners - the Saucony Grid Type A4 racing flat. A reader just sent me an e-mail (thanks Todd!) indicating that he tried out the Grid Type A4 and thinks very highly of it as a midfoot/forefoot striking shoe. For Saucony fans concerned about the overall sole height of the Kinvara (assuming there are people besides me who actually pay attention to things like this!), the Grid Type A4 might just be the shoe for you. The A4 is not only lighter than the Kinvara (it weighs in at 6.3oz vs. the Kinvara’s 7.7oz - both values for men’s size 9), but it’s sole sits closer to the ground (13mm heel cushion, 9mm forefoot cushion in the A4 vs. 18mm/14mm in the Kinvara). With a heel-toe drop of only 4mm, the Grid Type A4 does seem like a promising candidate for midfoot/forefoot striking runners.
Your title as Director of Research and Education for Newton Running may give readers pause when considering your opinions. Just another marketing guy, some might think. Perhaps if you would toot your own horn a little (it’s OK, this is Slowtwitch) and share just a bit of your athletic background, you might catch the ear of a few who are unaware of your accomplishments. Oh, and welcome to Slowtwitch.
I was a professional adventure athlete for 13 years (7 world championship wins, 22 international titles), and worked at with the design departments at Salomon and Nike for most of that time. Was peripherally involved in the Free project and ran barefoot (track and cross country) through college.
Still running (not racing) and did the Badwater Ultra this year for the first time (mostly in the Newton racer). First placed masters male, 45 y.o. and beyond for what it’s worth. Yes, old and slow, but I can still go.
Thanks for the suggestion. I’ve tried the A4 twice, and am the first to admit that it’s a solid distance race flat - with substantially better ground feel than the kinvara. My biggest concern is that it doesn’t address the cushioning and construction demands of the high mileage training and long, continuous runs (i.e. 50k-50mi).
I wish that I were one of those people that could advocate a minimal shoe for any distance or terrain, but the simple fact is that I’m not strong enough to withstand the beating of a thin race flat for hours on end. I did 9 miles last night on very tired legs in my NB flats, and by the end I was micro-adjusting my form to minimize any perceived stress. I would definitely run up to marathon distance in them, but that’s assuming that I don’t need to turn around and log 30-35 miles the following week and another marathon-distance run 7 days later.
I find that the 8-10oz shoes are like racing flats for people with bad form - low on stability but substantial in material. So if you happen to have good form, they’re like race flats inside of an armored truck. I’ve got over 900 miles into my <9oz speedstars, and if you don’t turn them over to see the soles, they look brand new. Speaking of light, solid construction, I just received a pair of salomon speedcross trail shoes (~10oz) and I’m considering taking the belt sander to the lugs and grinding 5-6mm off the heel. It’s a lot of shoe for such modest weight.
Taking the opportunity. I have been working on moving from a heal strike to a mid/forefoot strike, and according to my coach I’ve done a great job in very little time so decided it was just fair to try a pair of newtons 00309. I am liking every mile I put into them and they definitely help me run more efficient (I have been able to run more without the usual injuries I was experiencing before), I recently did a run in my previous choice of shoes NB 1224 and my calves/shins hurt plus it was a lot harder to strike with the forefoot as there is so much cushion in the heal (plus for the first time in my life I felt they were heavy and slow). So, what I am looking for now is another pair of shoes I can alternate my runs with the Newtons, I heard this is best practice (alternate shoes? - excuse my ignorance). So, what can you all recommend as a good alternative to the Newtons so I dont get used to 1 type of shoes only?, What other shoes would help me continue to work on forefoot strike, lightweight, etc… I am mostly a Olympic triathlete, so my longest training run might be 10Miles, and probably 25 Miles per week.
Two shoes spring to mind, both Newton shoes though: Distance S (lighter and 1 mm lower in the heel) and Sir Isaac S (1 oz heavier, 2 mm higher in the heel and more outer rubber for increased wear resistance, traction and wear).
You could also try Terra Platna, Evo or Invo-8 F-light, all level shoes but without the cushioning.