Registration Fee Questions

Triathlon Forum
1

So, as a race director, I have a question that is a follow-on to Slowman’s post from last week about registration companies. A lot of you said you wanted to have only one fee that was all inclusive for races. We are one of the race companies that uses Active.com for our entries. We have the option passing on the fee, splitting it 50/50, or absorbing the fee completely.

What we do is offer some pretty good discounts on all of our events - like $10 for anyone who belongs to a tri club, or for our partner clubs a discount of 20% to offset the registration fees charged, plus we have a VIP program that is a kind of frequent flyer program for anyone who does 3 or more of our races each year.

If we moved to the model where we absorb all of the fees, plus the increase in insurance sanctioning fees that hit this year (20-50% increase depending on the event) it would likely mean that we have to discontinue a lot of our registration incentive fees. By the way, ST users have a 25% discount on our two biggest events each year so that is likely affected as well (Tri Santa Cruz and Surf City Triathlon).

Also, what would you think of registration incentives for USAT annual members, or people who purchase annual memberships with their registration?

So my question to you guys is which is more important - registration incentives or no credit card fees? It can’t be both across the board.

2

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what including the processing fee in the registration fee has to do with your discounts. What athletes want is one price. If you choose to use a premium priced processing company, then your registration fee is higher. If you choose an alternative, more competitively priced processing company, then your registration fee is more competitive.

The race directors are choosing the processing companies. We, the athletes, don’t have a choice. If you want to take the easy option that is fine, but include that in your registration fee. If you include all the fees we have to pay in the registration fee, it still leaves you open to providing discounts. You just have to be honest about what you are making us pay.

It may sound like I am being belligerent towards the processing company that you chose, because I am. There are cheaper, more competitive, more efficient options out there. They don’t have a chance because race directors hide the exorbitant fees by not including those costs in the true registration fee. Be honest, provide discounts and let the market determine the most effective option. Or be a weasel and falsely claim that somehow including all the athlete’s costs in the registration fees will prevent you from providing discounts. Your choice … then again it looks like you already made it.

3

I am not going to get into a verbal jousting match with you or anybody else about the merits of the registration company I am using. I have used other companies and have gone back to Active.com because in the long run they provide some services and consistent account management that I have not necessarily seen from some other registration services. It comes down to the total package kind of thing.

Insults aside, I think I asked a reasonable question. I used our model as an example. Despite what many people think, race companies do not operate at very high margins. The reality of the situation is that if you ask someone to take 10% off the bottom line of their business then there is a possibility that the race may not generate sufficient money to meet their expenses if they do that and offer additional incentives and discounts. This is probably very true of smaller and non-profit races.

There has to be some give and take in some cases in order to make the model work. Quite honestly, I was asking the question based on the feedback that people wanted a single price. So something has to give…either prices get raised on the front end to cover that, or money comes off the back end. My guess is that if every race director raised their prices 6 - 8% to cover some of these services the same people would scream that they are paying too much.

It’s a reasonable question…I get it that people want to know what the total cost is. Are you willing to give up something in incentives, or pay more at checkout to cover those costs.

4

I am not going to get into a verbal jousting match with you or anybody else about the merits of the registration company I am using. I have used other companies and have gone back to Active.com because in the long run they provide some services and consistent account management that I have not necessarily seen from some other registration services. It comes down to the total package kind of thing.

Insults aside, I think I asked a reasonable question. I used our model as an example. Despite what many people think, race companies do not operate at very high margins. The reality of the situation is that if you ask someone to take 10% off the bottom line of their business then there is a possibility that the race may not generate sufficient money to meet their expenses if they do that and offer additional incentives and discounts. This is probably very true of smaller and non-profit races.

There has to be some give and take in some cases in order to make the model work. Quite honestly, I was asking the question based on the feedback that people wanted a single price. So something has to give…either prices get raised on the front end to cover that, or money comes off the back end. My guess is that if every race director raised their prices 6 - 8% to cover some of these services the same people would scream that they are paying too much.

It’s a reasonable question…I get it that people want to know what the total cost is. Are you willing to give up something in incentives, or pay more at checkout to cover those costs.

Build your costs into the price and show one price to the customer. What customers don’t like is being hit with fees after the fact, simple as that. When you advertise a price, advertise the final price up front. You can still offer incentives that discount the original “sticker price”. As for margins, the margins a company operate on are going to vary wildly - margins shouldn’t come into play, the focus should be on numbers of registrations. The incremental cash flow generated by an additional registrations should be well and above what the incremental cost is - if this is not the case then that is a totally different business discussion altogether. Earning a profit from a race isn’t a god-given right. Race directors need to know how to attract racers, put on a good race, and focus on growing registrations year-after-year.

5

Build your costs into the price and show one price to the customer. What customers don’t like is being hit with fees after the fact, simple as that. When you advertise a price, advertise the final price up front.

This, exactly this. It is also what the other poster said but apparently this particular RD is a little sensitive.

6

I would actually rather have upfront discounts. I expect additional fees now a days so they don’t bug me too much, but don’t expect them so much that I would even notice if they were removed. With upfront discounts you see it and it feels like a win for the customer.

7

So my question to you guys is which is more important - registration incentives or no credit card fees? It can’t be both across the board.

Yes it can.

To summarise what others have said, what I would want is to go to your website, see the race listed at costing $100, and then pay $100.

What I don’t want to see (and it is weird that Race Directors and companies such as Active seem to be the only people who don’t “get” this) is to go to your website and see the race listed as $89, but then by the time I click confirm, the price has been pushed up to $100 because of “processing fees”.

You don’t list your race entry fee as $10, and then tack on $20 for permits, $10 for goodie bag contents, $30 for Police/traffic management, etc. So why do you separate out the cost of registration processing? It would make sense, to a degree, if there were multiple registration options - eg plus $11 to register via Active, but only plus $5 to post a paper form and cheque - but not if it’s the only way of entering.

None of the other posts have suggested that you as the RD should cover these costs, or that you should take 10% off your bottom line. Our point is, don’t hide the fees and spring them on the participant at the last minute, be upfront and include them in the advertised price.

8

I don’t think anyone is asking you to cut margins to absorb the fee without increasing your price. I think a growing magority is tired of the nickel and dime effect of registering for the race. Simply put, we want to pay the advertised price. Weather that is the current rate or 10 bucks higher doesn’t matter. I want to pay the price I see on the first page. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth otherwise

9

I prefer what others have communicated, final price with any fees advertised up front. Very similar to the format that airlines have to use now to show final total costs with fees and taxes along with their ticket fares. You don’t have to roll it up in one final value necessarily but at least provide the total fees on the same page that shows price or cost.

10

Just add the fee to your registration fee.
For the race I direct we include the fee into the price. $70 is the entry fee and is the total fee at checkout. Consumers like this.
I could charge $65 and have $x.xx added on but I charge $70 and people know what they are paying up front. I race and this is what I like to see so that is why we do it.

We still have discounts for previous volunteers etc. based on the $70.

One side note is if you offer refunds. We offer 50% until a week before the event. When we give a refund we are essentially eating the registration fee and not splitting it with the consumer. But from the consumers eyes they are getting the 50% back which is what the refund stipulates - good karma.

11

Build your costs into the price and show one price to the customer. What customers don’t like is being hit with fees after the fact, simple as that. When you advertise a price, advertise the final price up front.

This, exactly this. It is also what the other poster said but apparently this particular RD is a little sensitive.
x3

12

“This, exactly this. It is also what the other poster said but apparently this particular RD is a little sensitive.”

In fact I personally am not really sensitive about this. This posting came out of a discussion with 11 other race directors, all using different registration services. So I said I’d post it up and get some more feedback while trying to represent their concerns as well. I just used a couple of my events as an example. We all agreed that we’d like to do something to address the issues and provide better customer service based on the feedback from Slowman’s original post.

The issue comes in doing this midstream in a season where most people have races open, prices and discounts published, and budgets set. For some people it’s kind of hard to make that switch after the fact and be able to cover all their costs, etc. Especially for smaller events.

Interestingly enough, one poster said we’d get more registrations by switching to this model. Some of us are skeptical of that assumption. Some are already doing deep discounts for some events and may not be able to afford to do it after the year is set. Some have alternative registration processes to take into account that people might not want to use Active, or ImAthlete, etc. by providing mail-in capability with checks or credit cards.

Some of you guys want to paint the RDs as the bad guys because not everyone absorbs the fees and can’t or won’t provide the alternatives. I actually think that the some of the issues are broader than that, and yes there probably are some athletes and race directors out there who don’t give a rats ass either way, but there are many who do, and who care about making a difference and providing great customer service.

So I’ll put my money where my mouth is go over to Active.com right now and switch the button to absorbing all the fees so the published price is what the athlete pays! Club and special discounts stay.

Just recognize that not every event may be able to do that in the short term. Also, changing a mindset is a long and gradual process. Changing a paradigm may take a little longer!

13

Yes, we want one cost to enter the race. This is simple! If you can afford t give Tri club discounts, great. Doesn’t that mean there are covering your costs for them?

14

In fact I personally am not really sensitive about this.

Your response of “I am not going to get into a verbal jousting match with you” makes it seem like maybe you are. I think that most people realize that race directors generally aren’t getting rich, and in fact most of them need to have regular jobs to at least supplement what they may get from the effort that they put into managing races.

It seems disingenuous to say that you can either absorb the registration fees or keep the discounts for certain sub-groups, but not both. If your race was let’s say $75 last year and now in 2015 there won’t be any registration/service fees tacked on when paying, if the costs of running the race haven’t changed, charge $80 and promote the fact that there are no additional fees. I loved that registration for the Baystate Marathon was all-inclusive; that there was no service charge when registering. I can’t say whether you’ll make more money in the long run if you charge $75 and have the people registering cover the service fee vs. just charging $80 to cover it all, but I think that most of us athletes would prefer the latter. As someone else pointed out, the people registering for the race have no control over over which online registration company you choose to do business with; you do. If you are covering this cost (potentially with increased race fees), it behooves you to find the most cost effective registration company, that provides the service that you as a race director require.

Personally, I don’t care about the discounts. I don’t race enough where it would make sense for me to pay an annual fee to get discounted entry fees, for specific races. I would rather see race fees (including service charges) kept as low as possible.

So I’ll put my money where my mouth is go over to Active.com right now and switch the button to absorbing all the fees to the published price is what the athlete pays!

Nice! If you weren’t on the opposite coast, I might sign up for for one of your races in support of that change.

15

thanks Pete…

I was actually referring to the comment about Active.com…unwilling to get into a debate over the merits of one registration company over any other, not specifically about the pricing issue. But I didn’t like being called a weasel! :wink:

16

So my question to you guys is which is more important - registration incentives or no credit card fees? It can’t be both across the board.

Yes it can.

To summarise what others have said, what I would want is to go to your website, see the race listed at costing $100, and then pay $100.

What I don’t want to see (and it is weird that Race Directors and companies such as Active seem to be the only people who don’t “get” this) is to go to your website and see the race listed as $89, but then by the time I click confirm, the price has been pushed up to $100 because of “processing fees”.

You don’t list your race entry fee as $10, and then tack on $20 for permits, $10 for goodie bag contents, $30 for Police/traffic management, etc. So why do you separate out the cost of registration processing? It would make sense, to a degree, if there were multiple registration options - eg plus $11 to register via Active, but only plus $5 to post a paper form and cheque - but not if it’s the only way of entering.

None of the other posts have suggested that you as the RD should cover these costs, or that you should take 10% off your bottom line. Our point is, don’t hide the fees and spring them on the participant at the last minute, be upfront and include them in the advertised price.

WOW!!!

Finally someone nailed it! We tri-geeks are smart enough to know it’s a business. And, appreciate that an event has costs. Heck, I even get that it’s generally a thankless job. Which is why I say THANK YOU to anyone putting on an event or volunteering for an event (and I mean it).

But per the post above. Imagine if a race was advertised @ $250 then right at check out it said it costs an additional $25 for a mandatory parking sticker for your bike at the transition racks??? Speaking for me only, that would irritate me :expressionless: !!!

So, RD’s here’s the deal. By passing the buck (pun intended) of on-line registration fees to the racer you insulate yourselfs from the “irritation” factor AND sticker shock, all the while thinking “look how great this service is,” “that I didn’t pay a penny for!” YE HA.

See, by rolling in the cost, now you have an incentive to push for a lower cost from said provider of service, or, leverage to shop around - perhaps, they will be sensitive to your needs and offer services “al la carte” that meet your minimal needs and don’t have to pay for collecting data you don’t need and won’t use. In fact that data may be used against you by the competition that the registration service provided to that competition. This is the same as bundling in the catering (assuming you have after event food), you “see” the price, now you might actually care about shopping around.

Discounts at registration are a completely separate issue. Offer them or not. Wildflower (Tri Cal) is now using Event bright. They don’t get it either, they have that fee added after the price. Sure, Tri Cal is desperate for participants (due to the drought) so yes, they have a discount code, which does make the registration fee go away. But, then you have to pay for parking - AND there’s a fee for that (no discount code, though). Hey Tri Cal!!! I love ya, but, let’s face it. 99.99999% of the people racing are going to drive a car. Wrap that parking fee into the race, please.

This is one place where some airlines get it. One ticket price. One ticket. I wonder why Southwest is so popular?

RD’s thanks for having events - always room for improvement though.

17

Got it.
Or be a weasel and falsely claim that somehow including all the athlete’s costs in the registration fees will prevent you from providing discounts.
vs. what I wrote:

It seems disingenuous to say that you can either absorb the registration fees or keep the discounts for certain sub-groups, but not both.

The two statements more or less imply the same idea, although mine is perhaps more tactfully stated. I’m guilty of not always being tactful, I’m sure.

Your follow up responses make it clear that you’re certainly not “a weasel”. Running races is a low-margin business I imagine, especially if you have the athletes’ best interests at heart. Thanks for asking and caring about what athletes want.

Pete

18

No one is suggesting that you need to eat the registration fee this year if the registration fee has already been set. What we are saying is that if you had asked 10 registrants after your last race and before you set up your races this year 9 of them would have told you “I prefer an all-in fee” and you should have calculated your registration fee to include the registration service cost this year. I don’t hear anyone suggesting RDs should eat lower margins. I suspect 8 out of those 9 would have been happy to hear “Thanks for the feedback, we will be doing that next year” but kudos to you for being responsive this year.

19

Running races is a low-margin business I imagine, especially if you have the athletes’ best interests at heart.

Not that participants need to know this, but you are correct that the margins in the race/event business are much lower than they appear to be from the outside looking in. They are small and narrow.

This sets up odd expectations among participants. They see all the money going in and do the quick math in their heads, and go, “Wow - that’s a lot of money in revenue!” Many also think it’s an “easy” business to run. “How hard can it be”, seems to be an attitude felt by more than a few participants. Beyond a certain point, in size and scale, I can tell you that these events become a rather significant challenge with details and minutiae ( and costs) that go on and on and on. . . . . !

Many participants gripe and complain about races/events, an as noted low margin business, but think nothing of dropping $5 on a latte daily at Starbucks ( with no griping or complaining), where SB is making a rather sizable & healthy margin!

20

The issue I have is when a webpage says a race is £60 then when it comes to pay it is £60 for the race, plus a £5 processing fee, £2.99 credit card fee and £3.01 towards food for the RD’s daughters pet horse.

Had they been upfront and just said that the race was £71 I wouldn’t mind - just be upfront and don’t try an deceive people.

Concert tickets are the same - if not worse.