What does a rider have to do to get downgraded? To get suspended? To just get an email or phone call from a ref? Apparently for the refs for the nccna, a massive pile up with injuries that require surgery caused by someone who cannot go straight or ride upright is not enough. I guess they can’t be bothered with such things. See below:
Email to Casey (ref for ncnca)
Hi Casey,
I’m forwarding a link from the wente master’s cat 4/5 race this last Sunday. One of our riders was taken out (broken cb) by a careless and ridiculous move. The link is to a video of the accident. Considering the situation and the evidence from the footage, do you think that suspending the rider on the orange bike is in order? I’m hoping that suspending these types of riders will reduce the number of accidents in crits and on road races.
Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule. http://norcalcyclingnews.com/
Ref’s response:
Short answer is no I don’t see where the rider on the orange bike is the one who caused the accident. It is really had to say what the exact cause of the accident is. I think an equal argument could be made for the rider to the left of the rider on the orange bike being at fault for trying to move up into a nonexistent gap. Even a very experienced rider like John Elgart who has a good eye for this type of thing has a hard time knowing exactly what caused this accident. ON the one hand it looks like the guy on the orange bike needs better handling practice since it looks like there was a simple bump that he should have been able to safely correct from. But as John Elgart said the guy on the orange bike and the rider to his left may have hooked handle bars which is a much harder situation to correct from.
Yes the guy on the orange bike did move over a little but the rider in white to his left could have eased up since he was behind and should have seen the gap closing that he was trying to move up into.
Casey
Victim’s response to ref’s email:
Thanks for trying! I am disgusted with that explanation… I kept my line and that asshole couldn’t keep a straight line and came all the way from the right - went over the bot-dots, and was going backwards. We DID NOT hook handlebars, he leaned into my hips when he lost control of his bike. There is no way I could have slowed down - it is stupid to make such a suggestion because if I did I would have been the cause of a crash.
Anyhow, live and learn… I’ll get them next time.
umm…the title of your thread is completely ridiculous. The ref did indeed look at the video (and enlisted the opinion of someone else to view it as well). He wasn’t lazy or unwilling, he simply came to a different conclusion. Personally, I agree with everything the ref said.
After looking at it several times, I agree with the ref, however. There is nothing there that doesn’t say “racing incident”. Yes, one can “argue” that orange shouldn’t have done better, but that action is hardly something you should not reasonably expect to happen in a crit. (that is why I don’t ride them anymore…would be a shame to blow 5 months of training to have this happen at the beginning of the season.)
Of course the “victim’s” response is to feel angry, but one would think he’d be over that by now and not want to “get him next time”. That tells me who is at fault in the bigger picture.
And from your title, I’d say you’re not clean on this either…particularly since you signed up just to make this your first post (at least under this username)
I am trying to figure out why the guy with cameras on his bike slowed down so much once he was passed the accident. He got himself run over for no apparent reason. Was he just gawking at the accident? The guy that ran him over is the one that should be pissed about all of this.
I am trying to figure out why the guy with cameras on his bike slowed down so much once he was passed the accident. He got himself run over for no apparent reason. Was he just gawking at the accident? The guy that ran him over is the one that should be pissed about all of this.
Heh…get out your flame suit…I got it yesterday for saying the same thing.
I am trying to figure out why the guy with cameras on his bike slowed down so much once he was passed the accident. He got himself run over for no apparent reason. Was he just gawking at the accident? The guy that ran him over is the one that should be pissed about all of this.
Heh…get out your flame suit…I got it yesterday for saying the same thing.
It also looks like he changed his line to keep his rear camera on the crash. He could have been avoiding someone infront of him but he only shows the rear at that point.
the person to get suspended ought to be the one that sent that email. poor sportsmanship shines through along with innappropriate language to an official that volunteers time to make the races happen. me me me me…
its a crit, a 4/5 crit no less. what part about 5 does the writer not get? could be their very first race, might not be, but could be
there are no downgrades from 4 to 5 allowed by rules and downgrades are requested, not forced
the person to get suspended ought to be the one that sent that email. poor sportsmanship shines through along with innappropriate language to an official that volunteers time to make the races happen. me me me me…
well, the officlals do get paid-so it’s not* totally* a volunteer gig, but otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
i’ll stick with volunteer, until we are all required to be officials in order to race. I don’t think they get paid enough for the crap they have to put up with each race.
It is clear that he slowed down, watch the number of riders that go past him before he gets taken down. But with that being said the rider overtaking him needs to make sure he is able to pass safely as well. In the end it is just a typical Cat 4-5 race, mistakes being made all over the place. In reality, if the first rider who cause the crash in the first place could have ridden straight, the entire situation would have never occured.
yeah, the other thread with claims of the guy sprinting and crashing into swoo. did they actually watch the video. the guy in back swerved around the crash and was watching to make sure he cleared it, as one tends to do when something is falling toward them in a race. he looked up after he realized he made it through and tried to go around the camera, and looks like he should have made it, unless the camera moved at the exact time he was passing. Never once did the rider in the back pedal, coasting or brakes. How that is sprinting into the back of someone, I have no idea.
After looking at it several times, I agree with the ref, however. There is nothing there that doesn’t say “racing incident”. Yes, one can “argue” that orange shouldn’t have done better, but that action is hardly something you should not reasonably expect to happen in a crit. (that is why I don’t ride them anymore…would be a shame to blow 5 months of training to have this happen at the beginning of the season.)
Of course the “victim’s” response is to feel angry, but one would think he’d be over that by now and not want to “get him next time”. That tells me who is at fault in the bigger picture.
And from your title, I’d say you’re not clean on this either…particularly since you signed up just to make this your first post (at least under this username)
I have to agree with you Reggiedog though I wish things could be otherwise. I also used to race a lot of crits but very rarely do anymore - I will do about 2 per season and only the absolute hardest ones that have big hills in them and lots of corners to thin out and string out the field. I love crits and miss racing them often but I’m simply at a point where my health and fitness means more to me than the injury risk.
I’ve also been taken out several times in crits by very, very stupid moves by other riders. I also once asked an official after a race in which my bike was destroyed and I looked as if someone had taken a belt sander to the right side of my entire body if there was any possible way to suspend the rider who had caused the crash (and it was much, much more egregious than the incident in this video). The official’s response was quite clear: “First of all, the rider who caused that crash is getting a lot of abuse from his peers in this category and we have to hope that has an impact on his future racing decisions. Second, I know you are frustrated because you got caught up in a stupid crash, but you have to absolutely realize that this is absolutely the risk that YOU have to take if you want to race crits.” That official was correct, and my response to this was to make the decision to race less crits, focus more on my fitness to be competitive in road races instead, and I am happy with both decisions in retrospect, so there was positive impact in the long run.
So anyway, I am sad to see and hear about any fellow riders getting hurt in crashes in crits, I know how bad that it sucks. But it can’t be emphacized enough: crits are dangerous, and you have to accept the risk that you are going to get hurt if you do them, no matter how frustrating it is when somebody does something stupid. I agree, I wish people that make stupid and risky moves weren’t in the pack, but in lower category races mistakes are simply going to happen. Not trying to justify stupid moves in a race, but it is what it is.
I am trying to figure out why the guy with cameras on his bike slowed down so much once he was passed the accident. He got himself run over for no apparent reason. Was he just gawking at the accident? The guy that ran him over is the one that should be pissed about all of this.
Heh…get out your flame suit…I got it yesterday for saying the same thing.
It also looks like he changed his line to keep his rear camera on the crash. He could have been avoiding someone infront of him but he only shows the rear at that point.
Watch it again. He changed his line (and braked) to avoid the crash. Go to 0:35 in the video when orange bike guy goes down right in the path of the camera bike.
Just as Slowman has a “trial by internet” clause which is typically followed here (but IMO not hard enough), it AMAZES me how much technology has fueled the fire. I can’t logon to a message board without somebody bringing up the dirty laundry from the day’s (or past day’s) racing.
Years ago, everyone would simply grab a beer afterwards and chat. Occassionally a lil scuffle would break out, but IMO that’s rather healthy compared to jumping behind the keyboard and bogging down resources and emotion. WTF cares if someone is right? When the flames start…everyone loses.
Downgrade a Cat 4/5 racer? LOL. Wow. Folks need to lighten up.
As for the video…IMO it only tells a part of the story and I don’t think it serves up enough evidence to warrant an email to the ref. Totally cool if folks wanna race with a camera, but using it as some sort of evidence is kinda lame (as it doesn’t include the whole truth). Cool video though.
Yes, officials get paid. And the rate varies. As a new official (a “C”), I get $50 for the whole day. I haven’t taken my first assignment yet and will likely only do a couple each year. I sat for the test because I wanted to know the rules better.
I’m sure the video is more useful to an attorney than the USCF ref.
As for exciting…I kinda wish I was a Cat 4/5. I do find them fun (I did a non sanctioned race last year). You can attack, race, attack, race, attack, attack, attack. I’m not fit enough to attack with the big boys. I just try to survive and hang on, so I’m really not “racing”. Perhaps I need to request a downgrade. I type this while contemplating Tues Night World Champs or a long ride. arrghhh.
I don’t think they get paid enough for the crap they have to put up with each race.