Red Cross report on alleged torture

As summarized in Eugene Robinson’s WaPo column:

After years of stonewalling, the Bush administration in October 2006 allowed the Red Cross to interview 14 Guantanamo detainees who had previously been held and interrogated in the CIA’s secret prisons. Among them were several men who almost certainly played major roles in planning and executing the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, including Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshib. Others, such as Abu Zubaydah, now seem to have had less involvement in the attacks than once believed.

The 14 men told remarkably similar stories. After being arrested – whether in Pakistan, Dubai, Thailand or Djibouti – they were blindfolded, shackled and flown to an interrogation center that all of them identified as being in Afghanistan. This was probably the prison facility at the U.S.-run Bagram air base north of Kabul. Twelve of the 14 said they were tortured.

Three of the detainees reported being subjected to suffocation by water – the torture known as waterboarding. Abu Zubaydah’s account of the experience is quoted at length in the report: “I was put on what looked like a hospital bed, and strapped down very tightly with belts. A black cloth was then placed over my face and the interrogators used a mineral water bottle to pour water on the cloth so that I could not breathe. After a few minutes the cloth was removed and the bed was rotated into an upright position. The pressure of the straps on my wounds caused severe pain. I vomited. The bed was then again lowered to a horizontal position and the same torture carried out.”

Ten of the detainees said they were forced to stand in an excruciatingly painful position for days at a time, with their hands chained to a bar above their heads. If you don’t believe that’s torture, try it – and see if you last five minutes. One detainee, Walid Bin Attash, had an artificial leg, which he said his CIA jailers sometimes removed to make the “stress standing position” more agonizing.

Nine of the men said they were subjected to daily beatings in the first weeks of their detention. Abu Zubaydah said he was sometimes confined for long periods in boxes designed to constrict his movement – one of them tall and narrow, the other so short that he could only squat in an awkward and painful position.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/09/AR2009040903523.html

A few questions here. First, if this kind of treatment is not considered torture, and these detainees were suspected of involvement in the 9/11 attacks, why did only 12 of 14 allege it? Either two caved early and didn’t require extreme interrogation techniques, or they don’t consider this kind of treatment torture? Second, waterboarding and daily beatings aside, how does stringing up a suspect with shackles, for days on end (in one case, on one leg), not constitute torture, by anyone’s definition? Third, if these reports are true, and the Obama administration determines these acts meet the legal definition of torture, does it not have an obligation to investigate and bring charges when the facts warrant prosecution, at every complicit link in the chain of command?

Ha. You gullible liberal schlub, you and the Red Cross (or was it the Red Crescent they let in?). Clearly, al Qaeda trained these individuals to lie in a similar manner to implicate the US of A in the use of torture. You forget that these people (and I use the word loosely) are terrorists: the worst of the worst. They wouldn’t be there if they weren’t guilty.

Get with the program.

Well, I’m not doing anything wrong, so I’ve got nothing to worry about…

But to the point: To what legal standard do you hold interrogators who participated? “Just following orders” would be the lynchpin of their defense for all but a select few; in most cases, they were following orders that they likely believed to be within the legal boundaries. So who should ultimately be held accountable?

(Not that I anticipate anyone being held accountable. The president won’t rip this particular can of worms open anytime soon.)

Abuse isn’t necessarily torture. You cheapen the term when you call them the same.

I see. So you’re saying that we systematically “abused” detainees, but didn’t torture them? Did Senator McCain cheapen the term when he called waterboarding, or sleep deprivation, or the beatings he received in Hanoi, torture?

Have a read and decide for yourself if this - or anything, for that matter - constitutes abuse, and not torture. Granted, there is no mention of brazen bulls or crocodile tubes, so prepare to be unimpressed.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22614

On the bright side, we have a new President, and this will not happen under his watch!

Unless we really want to, then it will. But hey we banned it!

Permanent physical damage is a definition. Probably extreme. Where do you draw the line between abuse and torture?

Permanent physical damage is a definition. Probably extreme. Where do you draw the line between abuse and torture?

This is torture:

Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:“ any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. ”

It’s a fine line, in my opinion: would you consider the beating, forced sleep deprivation, and chaining from the ceiling, of a child by his legal guardian to be abuse, or torture? Either way, I find it interesting that we’re splitting this fine abuse/torture hair when discussing the treatment of men who have not been charged, tried, or convicted of any crime whatsoever, by operatives of the United States government.

You and I may draw the line in different locales, but we’re not the ones who decide what is, and what is not, legally defined as torture. The question is whether or not the Obama administration should investigate and charge those responsible, if and when they determine this behavior to meet the legal definition.

severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental,


Accepting this definition aren’t we still in a bit of a quandary?

No, the question is WHEN will the Obama administration want (need) information badly…

I find it interesting that we’re splitting this fine abuse/torture hair when discussing the treatment of men who have not been charged, tried, or convicted of any crime whatsoever, by operatives of the United States government.


With what crime would you charge a prisoner of war clearly subject to the Geneva Conventions?

With what crime would you charge an enemy combatant who is not clearly subject to the Geneva Conventions?

Are we obligated to treat both the same?

If so, when do we return the enemy combatant if they were not properly uniformed and fighting for a sovereign nation?

The alleged conduct should be investigated. If it is found to be illegal, prosecutors must use their discretion to bring appropriate charges or none at all.

No, the question is WHEN will the Obama administration want (need) information badly…

Bad information is never badly needed.

That’s a UN commission’s definition. The US are not signatories to that. There are other legal definitions.

Are we obligated to treat both the same?

No. At least, not in terms of procedure. The way we conduct our own behavior is what matters, in every situation.

The alleged conduct should be investigated. If it is found to be illegal, prosecutors must use their discretion to bring appropriate charges or none at all.

The conflicting versions of legality is the sticking point here. The Obama administration clearly disagrees with the Bush administration’s conclusions as detailed in their so-called Torture Memo. Can, and should, one administration prosecute members of another, based on their interpretation of law? I don’t expect to see it happen anytime soon.

If there was abuse, prosecute. Don’t call it torture. It’s not splitting hairs, its watering the term “torture” so that events at Auschwitz have the same meaning as Gitmo. They don’t, they never will.

No offense intended, but I think it’s you who is distorting the meaning of words here.

Can we not call the massacre of 33 innocents at Virginia Tech a tragedy, because the tragedy of September 11th claimed over 3,000? Can we not call John McCain’s “abuse” torture, because he was not subjected to the rack, the iron maiden, or drawn and quartered? Torture is clearly defined, as a poster detailed above. There are varying degrees of treatment that fall well within the definition’s upper and lower limit.

That definition posted above is one of the softest you’ll find; I don’t necessarily disagree with it, but it is far from universally accepted.

…and yes, I think the word “tragedy” is used too liberaly today…I’m getting old.

severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental,


Accepting this definition aren’t we still in a bit of a quandary?

Not at all.

If you are physically or mentally fucking with a person in order to get them to divulge what they are otherwise unwilling to divulge, then it is safe to assume that it is “severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental”… else it would have no chance of success and there would be no point.

I am glad you see it so clearly.

Is waterboarding severe?
Loud music? How loud?
Defecating on the Koran? Burning the Koran?
Taking nude pictures of your captives?

I am not so sure that the definition as proposed is helpful in the least.