Hey guys, want to get some of your collective input. After some disc/nerve problems at the end of 2015, from which I was unable to walk normally for a longer time than I would like, I was able to start walking and jogging this past winter. But during all of 2016 when I could not walk, I could actually ride. Fast forward to 2017, and suddenly I can’t ride anymore without my left foot wanting to come unclipped involutarily on the up stroke (too complicated to explain what triggers it, but its some bad feedback from the metatarsels that sets off a chain reaction upstream right up into my spine and bam…game over).
However, I can ride my spin bike with rat trap pedals and running shoes on. I am talking really wide running shoes like Merrell Bare Access or any of the Skora running shoe models or NB Minimus trail. Also I have a really wide stance width for my height which I only discovered after experiencing the same involuntarily foot unclipping after my original 2011 crash at IM Switzerland. I got over all that and was riding with wider shoes like Specialized trivent.
I can’t really tell if it is the more narrower stance width of my cycling shoes, that puts too much pressure on my outside metatarsels, the too much forward cleat position of cycling shoes relative to putting your running shoes on platforms (which by the way, end up with a lower stack height than cycling shoes) or the softness of running shoes around the met heads. All this to say, I tested riding with running shoes on my road bike yesterday and was able to get out and ride. In 2011, when I went through rehab and had to go through the entire gait retraining process and regain control of my leg for bike and run, initially when I got on the road bike, I just rode with duathlon platform pedals and running shoes. But I am hopeful I will get back to just regular riding.
I looked at Bont cycling shoes and they appear to be of promise. But how far back can I slam the cleat back and how wide?. The ability to mold the shoe MAY help solve my hot spot issues that trigger the spasms up stream when my body goes into a reactive protective mode, but I think I need to get the cleat back and get a wide stance width. I have also found that low stack height shoes tend to feel like the cleat is further back anyway, and Bont has models in the 3.6 mm stack range (add in 5 mm of stack for the cleat and you’re at 8 mm, which is like a Merrell BareAccess running shoe with 10mm stack)
The Lake TX222 in wide are really wide and have the possibility to put the cleats far back. The new 2017 white Northwave Tri-Sonic is wider in standard width model and also have normally for most enough set back
I highly recommend Bont shoes for foot issues.
I see someone mentioned that they are not good for comfort- but that depends on what kind of comfort that you need.
The Bont shoe can support your foot in ways that a standard shoe cannot.
I have foot problems- bad ones.
I have had multiple surgeries on both feet- my left one is still dodgy.
I have had the sesamoid re-shaped twice, neuromas removes, cysts removed, etc.
Basically I have a wide foot with a big arch, but the structure is all blown out so the foot does not hold the arch.
I have found that my Bont shoes hold my orthotic in a way that the arch actually does hold and it takes the pressure off the bad part of my left foot.
I did not even need the wide shoes, but the wide shoes are nice and wide if you need that.
Also, the sole of the Bont is really easy to drill and move the t-nuts if you need your cleats REALLY far back.
I also use wider pedal spindles- Shimano +4. You can get aftermarket Look spindles (for Keo2max) that are more like +6.5mm plus they will easily take 3 pedal washers.
I know that Speedplay makes wider spindles, but I would suggest staying away from Speedplay with bad feet. Too much monkey motion, rock, etc…- My guess is that you need stability.
Bont “wide” fit works really well for wide feet. Just keep in mind the best case scenario is 6 weeks from the time you order. They don’t seem to ever actually have anything in stock despite what their website might lead you to believe. I’ve got serious duck feet (ask anyone who’s seen my custom shoes, lol) and nothing off the shelf is as good as Bont. For stance width and rearward cleat placement try speedplay pedals with their extended 3 bolt to 4 bolt adapter. That’s probably as good as you’re going to do unless you go with custom shoes. With the extended adapter you can get into the vicinity of “mid foot” cleat positioning with the Bonts and the adapter adds ~2mm to the stack.
Lake CX402 in wide fit are wider than Bont wide, at least in the models I tried. If you go with speedplay as GreenPlease suggested then you also have the option of the direct mount speedplay version. I have never molded Bont shoes but reviews are mixed. First hand, CX402 mold very well. Product information suggests just the rear of the shoe as a ‘mold zone’, but forefoot is also moves easily after heating. Also consider CX237; as an example I have CX402 in wide, but CX237 in regular width - without the ‘bathtub’ construction CX237 should offer you a huge amount of forefoot room. Newer models (eg CX332) are also wide but tighter in the toebox so might not suit.
As you can see I’ve had issues with wide fit shoes. Lake solved this (mostly, not entirely). Worth noting that I didn’t try a huge range of Bont models, just a couple of higher end. There’s a good chance something in the Bont range will suit. Others I tried and found to be very wide up front are a couple of the very newest Giant and Shimano shoes. Thankfully shoe manufacturers seem to have come to their senses and all of the above have pretty good rearward cleat screw placement. Needless to say, for me Lake came out on top for cleat placement and width.
Sounds like you also need solid arch and/or metatarsal support - pay great heed to this.
Re: stance width - have you tried any of the extra width axles and/or the 20-30mm axle extenders?
I have very wide feet & Sidi Mega’s work for me straight out of the box. Not sure if the cleat position will do what you need but they seem pretty versatile. They have an essentially flat sole (compared to the tub style Bont use) and are pretty receptive to footbeds, inner soles etc.
Hope you can work it out - foot problems are no fun.
Lake CX402 in wide fit are wider than Bont wide, at least in the models I tried. If you go with speedplay as GreenPlease suggested then you also have the option of the direct mount speedplay version. I have never molded Bont shoes but reviews are mixed. First hand, CX402 mold very well. Product information suggests just the rear of the shoe as a ‘mold zone’, but forefoot is also moves easily after heating. Also consider CX237; as an example I have CX402 in wide, but CX237 in regular width - without the ‘bathtub’ construction CX237 should offer you a huge amount of forefoot room. Newer models (eg CX332) are also wide but tighter in the toebox so might not suit.
As you can see I’ve had issues with wide fit shoes. Lake solved this (mostly, not entirely). Worth noting that I didn’t try a huge range of Bont models, just a couple of higher end. There’s a good chance something in the Bont range will suit. Others I tried and found to be very wide up front are a couple of the very newest Giant and Shimano shoes. Thankfully shoe manufacturers seem to have come to their senses and all of the above have pretty good rearward cleat screw placement. Needless to say, for me Lake came out on top for cleat placement and width.
Sounds like you also need solid arch and/or metatarsal support - pay great heed to this.
Re: stance width - have you tried any of the extra width axles and/or the 20-30mm axle extenders?
When you say “tub” style construction do you mean that the middle metatarsels are lower than the outside or that they are all all on a flat surface with cradling around the edge of the foot. One of my issues with most shoes is that for whatever reason they are concaved on the inside meaning the middle mets are lower than the outside ones.
Also the axle extenders you mention. Can you point me to a link and could I use them with Shimano pedals?
Here are some stance width measurements to middle of left pedal on various bikes:
P3 BB30 crank, Quarq BB30 powermeter crank, shimano ultegra pedal 12.5 cmCannondale SuperSix, BB30 crank, shimano ultegra pedals, 12.5 cmCannondale slice, BB30 crank with spd mountain bike pedals 13 cm (this probably goes back to 12.5cm with Shimano Ultegra)Kestrel 200SC (trainer bike) with taper square bb, Shimano ultegra pedals 13.5 cmHome spin bike with flat pedals and rat traps 15 cm
I see there is a 1 cm variance in road bikes alone, but the surprising thing is that the 2.5 cm wider stance per leg on my home spin bike does not make me feel totally out of whack and at the moment it is the only bike I have been able to consistently ride this entire time with no leg spasms. Its the only bike where I don’t feel pressure on the outside metatarsels either until I tried rat trap pedals and super wide Skora running shoes on my Supersix. I have not tried to ride the home spin bike with clipless pedals on though, it is always set up for use with running shoes (I do this to strengthen my arches since I don’t ride this bike that much). In any case, adding 1 cm of axle spacer would put my P3 or Supersix only at the same width as my trainer bike, which, by the way is the bike that I have had the least spasms on over the last 1.5 years since this latest bout of nerve issues. It is also the second widest
Here are some stance width measurements to middle of left pedal on various bikes:
P3 BB30 crank, Quarq BB30 powermeter crank, shimano ultegra pedal 12.5 cmCannondale SuperSix, BB30 crank, shimano ultegra pedals, 12.5 cmCannondale slice, BB30 crank with spd mountain bike pedals 13 cm (this probably goes back to 12.5cm with Shimano Ultegra)Kestrel 200SC (trainer bike) with taper square bb, Shimano ultegra pedals 13.5 cmHome spin bike with flat pedals and rat traps 15 cm
I see there is a 1 cm variance in road bikes alone, but the surprising thing is that the 2.5 cm wider stance per leg on my home spin bike does not make me feel totally out of whack and at the moment it is the only bike I have been able to consistently ride this entire time with no leg spasms. Its the only bike where I don’t feel pressure on the outside metatarsels either until I tried rat trap pedals and super wide Skora running shoes on my Supersix. I have not tried to ride the home spin bike with clipless pedals on though, it is always set up for use with running shoes (I do this to strengthen my arches since I don’t ride this bike that much). In any case, adding 1 cm of axle spacer would put my P3 or Supersix only at the same width as my trainer bike, which, by the way is the bike that I have had the least spasms on over the last 1.5 years since this latest bout of nerve issues. It is also the second widest
This stupid exercise today finally shed light on why things felt “different” going from Taper Square axle bike (I had an SRM old powermeter till 2012) to BB30 starting in early 2013. I basically lost 1 cm of stance width on each leg. Damn BB30!!!
To go 2 sizes up in a quite narrow, which this model,from pi is, is not the wat to go. Cleats will not be at the requested position by the OP. Probably also not on your feet, but if it works for you that’s fine.
By tub, I mean the latter, but also the former is correct in that like most, they do err on the side of a concaved on the interior. I agree - I have no idea why this concave surface seems to be the preference and does not seem to be biomechanically sound. With this in mind, especially given your nerve problems this suggests you really do need to look further into metatarsal ‘buttons’ or other types of support in that region, as well as arch support. Eg, specialized insoles are an okay start, but also read up by starting here:
Regarding spacing feet apart, unfortunately about 1cm per side is a bit of a grey zone. Those axle extenders you linked to are what I was referring to, but the shortest you can get is 2cm per side (needs to allow for full axle length). Shimano makes +4cm (DA and Ultegra level) pedals and look ‘2 max’ models have long axles to allow 2mm of spacers to widen stance. From this respect Speedplay are best sicen they make various different axle lengths out to about 1/2 inch I think.
Good luck and definitely look hard into insole support.
Can some of you do me a favour and measure the max width of the Lake Wide and Bont Wide soles that you have at the widest point. I have a pair of Shimano “wide” but they ended up being kind of useless. The actual carbon sole is 9 cm wide on the “wide” which is the same as pretty well every shoe. The Shimano “wide” gets wide by hanging soft fabric over the edge of a narrow last sole…no wonder it did not work, because you end up with pressure on the outside metatarsels cause part of each is technically hanging out in free space over the edge of the sole. All my bike shoes are 9 cm wide, EXCEPT an ancient pair of Northwave Tribal Tri shoes which are 10 cm wide and actually have lateral adjust to go “wider” since there is more sole on the axle side of the sole than other shoes. Alas, the fore-aft on these old shoes is not sufficient.
I am hopeful that the Lake and Bont are wide enough AND that the three hole pattern is as close as possible to the inside (axle side) of the sole.
In the mean time, I am going to order a set of these:
It works out to around $40 CDN including tax and shipping to try going 2 cm wider on each leg. If that is too wide, I can slam my cleats totally the other way and it ends up being 1.5 cm extra, which works out to 14 cm center of frame to center of each pedal on my P3, which is still 1 cm more narrow than my home spin bike.
Note regarding these measurements: All size 47, measurements taken as perpendicular to the long axis of the shoe as possible – ie, because the widest point on the medial and lateral sides are not on the same position on the forefoot (this is NOT how Lake suggests you size for width in their range, but I think it is for Bont). In each case the widest point for a direct perpendicular measurement was probably about 2-3mm less.
Lake CX237 regular width: 103mm, for the carbon portion of sole only. As you note in other shoes, with foot overhang the widest point is greater than this. Note that I did try the wide version of this shoe previously and it was far too wide. I’d say it had to be at least 5mm more in each measurement.
Lake CX402 wide: about 108mm. Note that these are hard to compare directly – this measurement is in attempt to compare apples to apples, but it is not possible for there to be foot overhang because of the carbon tub. The absolute widest point in the forefoot for the entire tub is 113mm
For comparison: S-works road ~2012 model: 100mm.
Hope this helps. Good luck with the axle extenders - after you’ve tried them out please let us know how you get on?
Note regarding these measurements: All size 47, measurements taken as perpendicular to the long axis of the shoe as possible – ie, because the widest point on the medial and lateral sides are not on the same position on the forefoot (this is NOT how Lake suggests you size for width in their range, but I think it is for Bont). In each case the widest point for a direct perpendicular measurement was probably about 2-3mm less.
Lake CX237 regular width: 103mm, for the carbon portion of sole only. As you note in other shoes, with foot overhang the widest point is greater than this. Note that I did try the wide version of this shoe previously and it was far too wide. I’d say it had to be at least 5mm more in each measurement.
Lake CX402 wide: about 108mm. Note that these are hard to compare directly – this measurement is in attempt to compare apples to apples, but it is not possible for there to be foot overhang because of the carbon tub. The absolute widest point in the forefoot for the entire tub is 113mm
For comparison: S-works road ~2012 model: 100mm.
Hope this helps. Good luck with the axle extenders - after you’ve tried them out please let us know how you get on?
Thanks for this data. I think even 10 mm of extra carbon width would be helpful provides that the width is on the outside of the center of the pedal platform and not the inside (extra carbon on the axle side due the drilling of the holes forcing a narrow stance won’t help).
For now I will just ride with running shoes until I get the axle extenders (delivery over the border from the US is supposed to be 7-14 days). If I find any locally, I’ll give things a try this week. I’ll slam the cleats to the outside of the shoe (causing narrrow stance), thus eliminating 5 mm of the 20 mm that the adaptors give me. Let’s see how this works. This should not be any wider stance than on my old broken down triple equipped mountain bike (currently not rideable due to broken spokes, and fused everything due to winter road salt from commuting years ago in winter)
We’ve talked about going to more cushioned running shoes for nerve issues. This is also why I went to Simmons custom cycling shoes. I’ve posted on these boards a fair amount regarding Simmons and GreenPlease also recently bought a pair. With the lowers (unlike Bont) and the uppers being perfectly molded to your foot, I don’t have any hot spot or nerve issues, they are wide enough, I have my cleats set back pretty far, as does GreenPlease