Racermate/Computrainer--New Industry Bully?

Triathlon Forum
1

I was shocked to find out the other day that the two most recent releases of Computrainer’s Pro 3D software encrypt the performance files it produces. You can’t use third-party software or websites to analyze your Computrainer rides if you are using the newest version of the Computrainer software. If you want the raw, unencrypted data, you can buy a registration code from Racermate for $75. Amazingly, this is the same price as Racermate’s coaching software. I’ve also heard from these third parties that Computrainer is increasingly hard to work with (which I take to mean that Racermate is not helping these folks interface their software with Computrainer performance and other files).

Let me characterize Racermate’s behavior in one word: cowardly. Why does the current version of the Computrainer 3D software encrypt performance files? According to the Computrainer website, “to meet Electronic Bike Racing Association mandate.” But EBRA is a division of . . . Racermate. Is it really a mandate when all you have to do is walk it down the hall? C’mon. Racermate is scared of the competition from third-party cycling analysis packages and websites. Rather than improve its coaching software (or perhaps to stall for time to improve it), Racermate has chosen to hide the ball. Open standards grow the pie for everyone. Where did Racermate get the idea that this was the right way to do business? Well, Racermate is headquartered in Seattle. Hmm.

2

My biggest complaint is the outdated trainer stand.

I just wish Racermate would update their trainer stand with some quick release method. Right now IMO it is a pain to remove the bike and then put it back in.

3

Right On Big Bird,

 I couldn't agree more.  You've hit the nail on the head.

 I think most cyclists in the know, would agree that the Computrainer is the best trainer available with maybe the exception of the Velotron, but that is not even in the ball park cost wise.

 They are first in class with their Computrainer, if I may say so.  If their coaching/analysis software was the best as well, I don't think there would be a complaint, but when their software is decidedly second or third rate, stooping to this level is only their admission of this fact!  Their product can't stand on its own two feet!

 It would be something else if they were partnered with the software leader in this specialty and/or offered a first rate product or the best in class product.  These actions IMO only lower  Computrainer/Racermate as a company and  work very effectively to diminish their hard won reputation on their excellent piece of training equipment.

 Their mindset now is one of entitlement.  They are entitled to the fee for this software whether you purchase the software from them or someone else.

 This is also probably as a result of no one purchasing their software (an inferior product) and so they have embarked on this course to rectify their profit loss rather than to correct the root cause of this fact and improve the product  to an industry leading level.
4

As a computer programmer, the idea of encrypting the output file is inexcusable. It never occurred to me when I bought it that they would do this. Now, if I want to upload my workout to www.trainingbible.com I have to buy their coaching software?! I cannot conceive of any reason other than to extort more money after you’ve already shelled out $1000-$1500.

5

One word: Microsoft.

Racermate’s marketing practices reestablish the same paradigm Microsoft established in operating systems. The government that filed anti-trust case against them used their software to prepare the case. Ironic.

When there is a better product readily available it will eclipse Computrainer. Until then, sorry.

Racermate’s marketing position is so dominant in the high end, computer controlled terrain simulator bicycle trainer market there are no other players. Other heavy hitters have attempted to enter the market at price points 50% below Racermate and failed to garner market share. This is despite Racermate’s convoluted distribution techniques.

As a retailer, I’d love to sell the product. But there is absolutely zero margin. We have two Computrainers set up in our store, but we don’t sell them. For the retailer, there is no reason to.

Racermate owns the market. Until someone else comes along, they make the rules.

6

I’m in the software biz. Hey Racermate - ever hear of Open Standards? By making the CT output encrypted, they are taking a step backwards - while most of the software industry is moving in the other direction.

They know they have the best product (the trainer) so they feel they can afford to screw the public. There is no other reeason why they are doing this.

I manage a software group for a large company. We can’t afford to invest in certain areas of our product so we rely on something called “Partners”. The Partners develop lots of cool stuff that hooks into our output. It’s good for the Partners, good for us, and good for our customers.

Apparently Racermate is more predetory. Which, I guess is their right. This kind of practice spawns competition in a free market society - and may come back and bite them in the ass one day. This proves monopoly’s are not good for consumers.

  • TxDude
7

I think Racermate understands their days at the top are numbered. It is a matter of inevitability that another company- a real heavy hitter- introduces something better, cheaper and faster with more widespread distribution.

They have to make hay while the sun shines.

8

Yeah. They suck. Their software is horrible and the controller looks like something out of the 70’s.

CT would be worlds better if they allowed third parties to develop their software. It’s abyssmal.

But they know that they’re the only game in town, and suckers like us will pay to play. I bought the coaching software way back when after finally throwing my hands in the air and giving in.

9

Not to defend any untoward practices by RacerMate, but CompuTrainer is NOT a big money maker for the company, which is why it’s not a big money maker for retailers. I’ve sold 2 in the past 2 weeks, and I might have cleared $250 (>$3000 sales).

Anyhoo, if someone could do it better and cheaper, I’m sure they already would have.

In the age of $2000 carbon clinchers and $500 wetsuits, a $1400 CompuTrainer is,for all it’s little aggravations, still a bargain.
b

10

I wonder how hard it will be to write something to remove the encryption. Or maybe the better question is how long until someone writes it.

11

“I wonder how hard it will be to write something to remove the encryption.”

It depends on “how” the stream/files are encrypted. If they used some in-house hack, a decent cryptologist could crack it in a matter of hours or less. If they employed a well known secure algorithm with excellent key management then the answer would be: not in our lifetimes.

Vince

12

Wow, this is a surprising thread to me. When I purchased my Computrainer I was having technical difficulties getting the 3D up and running. It was the first release of the product. The folks at Computrainer were wonderful, patient, and took the time necessary. They have also helped many friends in this same manner. Of all the dollars I’ve spent on this sport, the biggest gain for the buck is the Computrainer. Now you’re slaming them for not going open source with workout files to be used with a competitors product? Do you want them to die? I’m glad they have made a move to protect themselves so that the lights will be on when I call and someone will answer the phone.

13

The software hasn’t change much in the past several years, from what I can tell. I have had one since 1998.

I’m betting Racermate is making BIG margins on these things now. The hardware hasn’t changed. The software isn’t changing much.

Interestingly - several years ago I talked to the head guy there and told him about a product I was using to create my own CT courses. It was called TopoUSA. He asked me a lot of questions and I sent him the link to DeLorme. Fast forward…now it’s integrated with their product.

In my opinion, the technology is out there for a competitor to come along. It’s expensive the first time you do something…after that it’s cheaper to imitate.

14

Computrainer response to Big Bird’s criticism and to this thread.

Dear Sirs;

   I thought you might be interested in what your customers are saying/thinking about your product and your decision to encrypt the performance files on the Computrainer.  Then again, you probably don't care what we (your customers) are saying/thinking.  That's why you encrypted those files anyway!

    Anyway, this is from the Slowtwitch.com forum.  Here's the link if you're interested:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=78227;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=951437

   Here's the thread up to this point.  I think you can get your customer's point of view from this, if you are interested.

Computrainer’s response:

First of all Ben, I have to say I’m amazed at the conclusions people have posted as to why we do anything, as though they have read our minds or something. Secondly, the encryption has only been recently added to the 3D software and has been a part of the all other software programs since the introduction of EBRA, which yes, is part of RacerMate.

The Encryption mandate has ZERO to do with forcing out any third party development, but instead was added to insure the integrity of performance files during national indoor time trials, where a file could be modified to skew the race results. It has taken a while for this part of RacerMate to come to fruition, but in less that 2 weeks there will be as many as a dozen or more races being held around the world, all within days of each other, that this encryption will seal the results. So if people want to hypothesize about why we’ve done something, that’s their right to do so, but it does not mean they were correct in their hypothesis.

It was also not our intent to take away features people were using – if they were already using them. That’s what this encryption did in the minds of some people, but ANYBODY who has not been too cowardly (as we were accused of) to contact us direct about this has been offered a work-around to this issue. But, for the amount of hype you seem to say exists, I’ve not had too many pounding on my doors saying “NOW I CAN’T USE THIS “OTHER” SOFTWARE because of you!” And if they did, they left very satisfied with my resolution – which is extremely fair.

Along the same line with our encryption resolution, we have also just released a new version of our Coaching Software with many improvements and at the same time lowered the cost. This was in attempt to synch up with the other similar products pricing. This bode well with the people who felt it was too expensive and didn’t work well. The new version is much improved and costs less, which I have received many notices of thanks and praise for this.

For those who claim that we are unwilling to work, or partner – as it was called – with others, this is far from the truth. There have been many opportunities for 3rd party programmers to make products that will work with our export files (which are designed to standardize the raw performance data for 3rd party developers).

There is no “Standardized Format” or “Open Standards” folks! I think what a small few want is Open Source software. To date we have not discouraged any third party activity that has not been related to a direct request for proprietary data output protocol from the trainer itself. This will remain proprietary intellectual property and it is not up to the wants of a very small handful of entrepreneurs to decide this. Suffice it to say we have our reasons for doing this – and they are not close to those that would compare us to Microsoft (which is stupid). The fact is, we make what profit we do make on software, plain and simple. Take away or minimize this profit and we will cease to exist. And you want us to somehow help this happen?

Regarding bike shops and margins, etc., – I challenge any US manufacturer selling small quantities (less than 200 a month) of a product as complex as CompuTrainer to build it in the US any cheaper! Sure, we could make it in Taiwan or Mexico with sweatshop labor and sell it a couple hundred dollars cheaper, maybe, or do as Tacx does and make it all out of plastic (which is a real “don’t give a damn about the customer and the life of the product” approach). But no, RacerMate builds these as though we intend them to last a very long time and we maintain quality control by paying US labor to build them all - in house - yes, in Microsoft country, everything from the welding of the stands to the electron assembly. It’s all done here, outside my door. The simple fact is that we have done as well as we have because it is the highest quality trainer and last far longer than the others. Sure, you can buy a trainer for $300, but I know people who go through one of those a YEAR! You do the math. Stare at the wall for $300 or train for 10 years or more (some are now 15 years old) on something that provides unmatched capabilities.

We also have investigated “quick-release” removal of bikes and have found all that do this are far less stable in “out of the saddle” climbs, which CompuTrainer is famous for. So, this is a clear “can’t have you cake and eat it too” thing. People just don’t get it. It could cost in the neighborhood of $100,000 to retool a change like this. For what? To gain 1 minute of removal time?

As for this bike shop who isn’t selling them, he’s a bit short-sighted considering bike shops do get as much as a 23% margin on CompuTrainer – and we’ll even drop ship to a customer. His claim of, quote: “absolutely zero margin” is a perfect example of the falsities people promote as truth, while at the same time criticizing us. What’s up with that? So that’s 18-23% to do nothing but act as a shipping point or at very least a contact point. They don’t need to allocate space to stock them. And, by the way, there are many bike shops who sell as many as 10 a month of these and this number is increasing, so it’s not so cut and dry as he’d have you believe. I’d guess this shop is just not very proactive in their selling approach. On the other hand, we’d love to offer the same margin as they get for bikes, but the cost of manufacture this trainer is such that we don’t have that much margin to offer. Simple as that. To compare us to any other trainer that does (and is made almost entirely overseas), is ludicrous. We make enough on CompuTrainer to continue development and pay employees, but we ain’t no Bill Gates firm to say the least. RacerMate has not made anybody millionaires.

So, this whole affair is only due to encrypting a program that was overlooked many years ago and was recently added, huh? People must have a lot of time on their hands, but clearly not enough to do much research before the post anonymous slatherings on message boards. Anyway, this should be a clear indication that we DO listen and care about what our customer are saying – because EVERYTHING you mentioned in this e-mail has been satisfactorily addressed to ANYBODY who was willing to communicate direct to us instead of posting it as a diss on a global message board.

I would challenge you to post my response to this same message board. How about that?

Have a great day.

Roger Moore

Bicycle Training Technology for World Class Performance

Roger MooreTechnical Service Mgr. Software Mgr. RacerMate Inc.3016 NE Blakeley St.Seattle, WA 98105 USA
roger@computrainer.com tel: fax: 206-524-7392 x.328206-523-4961

15

Roger,

You rock! I read most of these threads last night and just had to chuckle. Your response is right on. CT is the best bike trainer around bar none. Sometimes I think these “computer geeks” lose sight of the fact that it’s the actual training not the recording that is important here. Feedback IS important but the quality of the training, the service of the product and it’s reliability are what count most. Thanks for providing what I consider the best training tool on the market and for the price, nothing to include aerobars and disc wheels can give you the performance improvement that consistent training on a CT can.

Jack Weiss

16

I have been thinking about getting a computrainer for a long time. I got a little concerned with some of the comments. After reading the letter from Roger I just called the 800 number to order a Pro 3D.

Dave

17

I can assure you, if you use like it is intended and use it regularly, you will not be disappointed.

Jack

18

Hard to beat a dedicated CompuTrainer user.
Just another of the long list of things Jack and I agree on.
-bobo

19

LOL!!! I wonder what Roger’s opinion of clincher vs tubulars is :slight_smile:

20

Good points roger, an impassioned arguement and defense will earn you customers.

I only have one problem, and that was your bashing of tiawanese produced cycling gear. I would hardly consider many of the factories in Tiawan to be sweat shops. Many fine products come out of tiawan, and half the people who bash tiawanese stuff don’t even realize that they are riding on tiawanese made parts.

Who knows, you may one day have to move your operation overseas yourself, as many others have had to do.