Just read on IM website that two people at IM FL '02 (the racer, and the one that let him/her race with their number) were banned for life for race banditry. That will also be the fate of any other future bandits. Wow. Banned for life! That’s harsh.
I totally agree with IMNA on this. Racing badit puts the race, the organizers, and the sport as a whole in jepardy because of possible lawsuits, ie. the Alcatraz fiasco.
What I think they really need to look at is their refund and no waiting list policy. With IMs filling up in a week, a year before the actual event, athletes need more flexablility in pulling out of races, and signing up closer to the race. For almost all IM races, there is no shortage of people who would be willing to sign up, even a couple weeks beforehand, to make up for someone who couldn’t make it. The administrative costs of deleting one person out of the system and putting someone else in is trivial, especially compared to the $400 they take are charging. Unfortunately, I am sure the love the idea of registering 2200 people and only 1700 showing up to race and just pocketing the money from the other 500. Someone else here also suggested a staggered registration. What a great idea, make 600 spots available 12 months out, another 600 6 months out, and the final 600 3 months out. They really need to start looking at it from the athletes perspective.
If you were able to get some of your money back, trade or sell you entry in case you can;t race, the problem of race bandits would probably occur a lot less.
if i understand your position on this, i agree with you totally. i’m not at all against banning someone for life. but there has also got to be some linkage between the penalty for a ban, and the refund policy. this is especially the case with high-demand events, like IM races and those races in a a race-underserved community like san francisco.
if i was a san fran athlete wanting to race within 150 miles of my local area and i also wanted to do an ironman, i’d have to shell out $1500 in entry fees prior to the year these races would be held just so i could reserve my position.
so then let’s say i move, or i’m injured. then what?
USAT thinks it has already addressed this question. but it hasn’t.
I’m not sure I agree with the idea of holding TicketMaster up as a model.
It is true that if there is no penalty for dropping a race after you’ve entered, then people will just sign up for all they can and deal with the scheduling later. Surely not a good thing. But there is a middle ground here. I agree with the idea of a waiting list for refunds, but I also think that full refunds are not a good idea. The RDs should be able to pocket some percentage of the entry fee of the original purchaser. I’m thinking 15-25% would be enough to substantially reduce potential abuse. This would also only be an issue for those races thay aren’t in very high demand. So maybe there should be no refunds/waiting lists (obviously) unless races are sold out. I would imagine RDs would like this scenario. They could actually make more money than today by charging the same amount for entry fees, pluss making the percentage on the cancellations plus the additional revenue generated by the waiting list repurchasers.
The main reason I disagree with you, Francois, is that here in the good ol’ US of A, a violation of this particular rule in conjunction with the risks inherent in the sport can lead to lawsuits which can have a severe negative impact on the sport itself and all of us participants. Aren’t lawsuits grand???
I’d have to side with the Race Director here. I don’t think it’s the RD’s responsibility to make adjustments to their entry process, if you don’t like signing up a year in advance, don’t do the race. I didn’t race IMFL 1999 because of a medical problem that occured in July, so I KNOW how losing your money feels.
I like the idea of staggering the entries is a good idea, but I don’t see a high-demand race going through the trouble. Sort of like a conversation I had with a RD a few years back. Back in the day, I was doing some stuff with USAT and we wanted to see a big race (in the region) get sanctioned. The RD’s reply shut us all up, “Why would I go through all the extra work if my race fills in a week anyway?”
I think flexible refunds and staggering signups is great for beginning races; they will get more people signing up and (sadly) can probably charge more for entry, but IMHO qualifying races (like IMFL) are just too high in demand.
$0.02
-gc
so what in you opinion would be an appropriate penalty to an act that could potentially end the sport of triatlon in the USA? the insurance company has made it clear that if people are racing under false names and without signing a valid liability waiver they will no longer issue policies for the sport.
We had this discussion on the old forum. At the time a San Francisco lawyer was arguing persuasively that the mandatory one year ban was arbitrary. He successfully lobbied for a discretionary ban, presumably to be less than one year.
I guess I don’t understand the lifetime ban described above. There must be a lot more going on other than just being a bandit.
Am I right about my history here?
you are correct. however this ban has nothing to do with USAT. The ban was instituted by a race promoter, in this case Ironman for violating the terms of the written contract between the athlete and Ironman. Simply put, they will no longer do buisness with those 2 individuals and they cannot race in any event put on by Ironman.
Well those banned certainly can’t race under their own name but if they really wanted to race to they get someone similar to enter and use their wristband.
I’d hate to think of the retribution a banned person could exact on an IM event in revenge, though the idea of somebody nasty swimming off the coast of say Florida, with a shark fin on their back, is quite amusing.
The Ironman phenomenon has become too big, it’s time to get back to the roots, except I would probably die. I only compete for the food these days(and Tom’s stomach must pray for a long race!).
" the insurance company has made it clear that if people are racing under false names and without signing a valid liability waiver they will no longer issue policies for the sport."
i’d have to see for myself what an insurance company’s representative has actually said before i take it as gospel.
to me, this is like buying an airline ticket. the airline needs, for reasons of security for us all, to make sure that the person buying the ticket is also the person flying on that ticket. but it would be onerous for us to all have to buy our tickets eight months in advance in order to get a seat, and have to pay top dollar, and have no recourse if we couldn’t fly. as it is right now, the airline industry is big enough, and there are enough players, so that it’s self-regulated, that is, competition takes care of the problem. our sport isn’t big enough for that to be case, and the purpose of a nat’l governing body is to keep the sport flowing on an even keel, and to keep inequities and inefficiencies from occuring (as best it can).
yes, it’s a problem when an RD gets a cancellation, just like when an airline gets one. there ought to be a penalty to pay. but it ought to be a fair penalty. that would solve the bandit problem. if the bandit problem was REALLY the problem USAT says it is (if its carrier REALLY is concerned about this problem) then USAT would be hard at the RDs to use a more generous – and more uniform – refund policy. the fact that USAT isn’t tells me that it’s doubtful that the carrier really takes this problem as seriously as USAT says it does.
Here in Atlanta, the Peachtree road race has 45,000 participants. The number of bandits is incredible. People will bandit $15 dollar races. This has always happened. Severe punishment is going to be required to get people to stop.
As far as insurance companies go, they will not refuse to insure an event. They will take the premium. Then, when an accident happens that involves a bandit, they will correctly refuse to pay any of the claims. The bandit was not registered, and did not sign proper paperwork so the insurance company is not liable for a claim. Then the race director becomes liable, and maybe USAT. Preventing bandits is, or should be, a top priority for RDs.
As far as race entry refunds. If they allow liberal refund policies, then these IM races that sell out in weeks, will sell out in a day. People will buy entries and make up their schedule later, getting refunds for the races they choose not to do. It will be even harder for the masses to get into races. There is a refund policy for IM events, and yes it is painful. I decided not to do IMUSA one year, and was hit for $200. I do not sign up for races unless I am going to make every effort to be there.
Something to think about: If I was in business, and I had a product that sold out in one week, leavning me with 51 weeks of having no product to sell, I would closely look at supply and demand and then jack the price sky high. Instead of selling 2200 entries and assuming 1800 would show up, I would sell 1900 at a much higher price and wait for 1800 to show. I bet at about $750 this would be how the percentages fell. 2200x400=880,000. 1900x750=1,425,000. Do the math. The deal we have now is not that bad.
From what we’ve seen on E-Bay re IMH, $750 might not be far off.
Bob Sigerson
I admonish each of you to wage a world-wide Jihad against these infidels, these invaders, these devils- the race bandits. These bandits are not “racers”. They are, it is written, thieves and beggars. Cast stones upon them. We will roast their stomachs and dance on their bodies. Attack them at every opportunity with shovels and shoes. These race bandits are the scorn of our world. We will drive them from our swim starts. As I write this, there are no race bandits on this holiest of forums. They have been defeated. Dan Empfield (praise be upon him) would never allow such blasphemy.
Uk, ooh! You’ve had your usual 2 cups of coffee and cherry turnover this morning, haven’t you?
I don’t think its harsh. I’m against bandit’ing. Those that do should be banned in tri’s and 10k’s, marathons etc.
It’s an insult to those that legitimately register, qualify, participate etc. in these events.
Boston Marathon is coming up and this event is known to have lots of bandits. There is a faction of people in the triathlon and running community that think it is very cute to be wacky, bandit, etc. This is a poor example and complete lack of integrity and shows very poor character.
As for the price if some triathlons I agree they seem somewhat high.
Ahhh, Yes, I have had them. I have dined at the holiest of altars. I have drank of the caffienated beverages, praise be upon them. They bring me strength in this holiest of wars we wage against the race bandits, the infidels, the stealers of other people’s race spots. I will slay a thousand race bandits and bask in the grace of Slowtwitch as I take my rightful place beside Dan and Gerard and Frank, praise be upon them… I need another cup of coffee.
Is there any other way to drink coffee?!! I was just enjoying, nae admiring, TD’s caffine and sugar fueled riff on an otherwise serious subject. Oui, ces’t sa?!
sorry! I am afraid that my French language skills are severly atrophied. They do not get much use, verbal or written, nowadays. My memory of the time I spent in Tours studying is still sharp though. And, remember the armpit hair thing that came up in another thread. When I lived there it wasn’t an urban legend.
Back on bandits a minute. As a risk manager, the real issue is one of liability. As noted earlier, a bandit has not signed a waiver. So even the mitigating factor of having a signed waiver is not there. Although they are in the race “illegally” you just gotta’ know that if they are injured they will contend that they had some kind of right to expect a safe course. And (this is the USA after all) there will be a lawsuit! A lifetime ban might be too harsh. But maybe a lifetime ban where you could earn back your elegibility through hours (and I mean a lot of hours) of race vouluneering might be a solution. Or am I just being too simplistic?