How much run volume are you doing annually?
What is your run volume in your peak build up?
Longest brick run leading into Ironman (how long is the bike AND your run for this session)?
How many “long runs” (over 2 hours) in training?
What is your longest/biggest training session before race day (either S/B/R or just a massive B/R brick)?
Are these the wrong questions to be asking?
My n=1:
About 1,500mi/yr, which works out to 30mpw including recovery periods
40mpw. My body doesn’t handle anything more
Longest brick for my last build was 118mi bike, 5mi run off the bike @ IM effort
I’d estimate about 10 total, increasing from 14-20mi over the 2-3 months leading into the race
Same answer as #3; about 7 hours. I’ve done builds where my longest brick was 130mi bike/8mi run, but I didn’t see any improvement
These answers are brief but let me know if you’d like more specifics/insight!
45 mpw or 2250/year
What is your run volume in your peak build up?
50mpw, I actually run higher volumes peaking around 90mpw in the off-season and spring then “maintain†that form while biking more in the summer tri season
Longest brick run leading into Ironman (how long is the bike AND your run for this session)? **80 mile bike into 13 mile run **
How many “long runs” (over 2 hours) in training?
What is your longest/biggest training session before race day (either S/B/R or just a massive B/R brick)?
80 mile ride + 13 mile run and 120+ mile bike only day
Are these the wrong questions to be asking?
I think run performance in an IM is all about race day execution, namely calorie intake during the race and not over biking.
I believe any 3:25 marathoner (and many slower) has a body that is physiologically capable of under 4:00 in an IM, and if it’s not happening it’s because of a race execution issue and not a training issue.
The data says there should only be about a 30 minute gap between open and IM marathon times, maybe slightly more for slower runners or extreme circumstances. So if you get marathon time below 3:30 and aren’t breaking 4 in an IM, I’d look to race execution first, namely maxing out calorie intake at around 400/hour all day long.
There are so many people who bike around 5:30 and run 4:30, or bike 6:00 and run 5:00, probably the majority. Those bike times are fast enough that the person clearly is capable of a much faster marathon even during an IM, even if not talented at running, and I don’t think imperfect run training is to blame.
There are so many people who bike around 5:30 and run 4:30, or bike 6:00 and run 5:00, probably the majority. Those bike times are fast enough that the person clearly is capable of a much faster marathon even during an IM, even if not talented at running, and I don’t think imperfect run training is to blame.
This is bang on. I am one of those guilty of this. 3.20 open marathon, bike 5:30 and run shit - 4.12 is my best in 3 IM attempts. I previously blamed my build up but looking at it with a clear head I think its all actually a combination of not eating enough and slightly overdoing the first bit of the bike (getting caught up in the fun of the day)!
This is bang on. I am one of those guilty of this. 3.20 open marathon, bike 5:30 and run shit - 4.12 is my best in 3 IM attempts. I previously blamed my build up but looking at it with a clear head I think its all actually a combination of not eating enough and slightly overdoing the first bit of the bike (getting caught up in the fun of the day)!
I do think there is a trade off depending on how hard we choose to bike, but I agree you probably have room to improve the run by a good 15-20 min even if only giving up a few min on the bike.
My thoughts, I’m late 50’s and been racing over 30 years: -
How much run volume are you doing annually?
about 750 to 800 miles
What is your run volume in your peak build up?
In my long course plan I averaged 17 miles per week across 26 weeks
Longest brick run leading into Ironman (how long is the bike AND your run for this session)?
82 mile bike and 11 mile run both at race effort on very similar terrain to my race.
How many “long runs” (over 2 hours) in training?
4 with two longest each being 21 miles mainly flat and off road
What is your longest/biggest training session before race day (either S/B/R or just a massive B/R brick)?
See the brick above - also did a long swim, medium bike and medium run (I think it was 3k, 50 mile, 11 mile)
The above helped me to a 3.21 IM marathon.
As someone else has said on race day, the marathon is as much about nutrition/fluid as anything else. If you don’t get this right you can be the best marathoner on course but you aren’t going to have a good day. So practicing this element in your training is vital.
Annual volume about 1600km
Big weeks around 50km
Last season I did 2 brick sessions of 3* 60min ride → 30 min run at 10k run pace
Probably 5-6 long runs at >2hr, longest around 2:20 / 33km
Wrong questions? Yes because you’ll get personal anecdotes, depending on who is replying those are sold as wisdom. People are very different and what works for me might not work for you.
Additional info:
More or less 2200 km (1400 miles).
80-90 km (50-56 miles) per week.
Two long brick sessions with 2 weeks interval between them, first one is 45 days before the race. First long brick is a 5h30min bike at race pace and 20 km (12 miles) run easy. Second long brick is a 4h30min bike at race pace and 20 km (12 miles) run easy.
Two that usually average something between 2h20min and 2h30min, most of my long runs are close to 2h.
The sessions from answer 3.
No, these are good questions, but the IM marathon can be predicted by your racing execution like Nick2413 mentioned and your experience. Run/Walk IM marathon strategy works great also.
Just going back over the last 12-16 weeks or so before my IM debut this past fall (3:12 w./ a bit of a blow up- nutrition/stomach versus fitness/cramping, came really close to a much better day) (1:13 open half (2022), 2:42 open full (2019)- outdated)
Edit: with some of the additional questions I think history is important. I’ve only been swimming/biking for 2 years. Started off running marathons a decade ago & have year with total mileage in the 3k-4k range. I ran just under 2k miles last year, in full triathlon training, and it was my lowest yearly running total in 11 years. I set open PBs from the mile to half marathon, which doesn’t mean that low mileage works. It just means that lifetime mileage matters. Race day weather matters. Overall training volume matters.
I only have easily accessible data for the six months before IM last year (my second), but…
How much run volume are you doing annually?
2.5 hours per week, so around 20 mi / week, out of total 11 hours / week average. Outside IM training I would run more than this (maybe more like 4-5 hours) and swim/bike less.
What is your run volume in your peak build up?
Peak week was 5 hours of running, skewed by one confidence-building 2:45 long run. Other than that, peak volume was ~4 hrs weekly.
Longest brick run leading into Ironman (how long is the bike AND your run for this session)?
30 mins. I’m not convinced running after biking has training benefits that outweigh injury risk for amateur athletes (or that running after biking is somehow a different discipline to train than plain running).
How many “long runs” (over 2 hours) in training?
Only 4 over 2 hours, but lots around 1.5 hours.
What is your longest/biggest training session before race day (either S/B/R or just a massive B/R brick)?
My big days were all exclusively bike days of up to 6 hours, with S/R on other days.
As an improving, low/mid volume MOP athlete, aged 41, my first consideration was injury-avoidance. So I was very conservative with run volume and tried to always run fresh. My next consideration was consistency, and had almost no weeks below 8 hours total / 2 hours running compared to my average of 11 over at least nine months. Finally, I relied on bike to add volume, and when I had my bigger weeks (6 weeks over 15 hours) it was almost all additional bike volume.
Not setting the world on fire, but took 1.5 hours off my first IM time, had no injuries and felt positive throughout, and will keep with this rough template as I inch towards my <10 hr goal.
How much run volume are you doing annually?
-Avg ~15-20 miles per week
What is your run volume in your peak build up?
-3 to 3.5 hours per week, 25-30 miles
Longest brick run leading into Ironman (how long is the bike AND your run for this session)?
-6 hour bike into 30 min run
How many “long runs” (over 2 hours) in training?
-3-4 runs of 2+ hours, I like to keep it around 1:20-1:30 and then extend if doing an Ironman
What is your longest/biggest training session before race day (either S/B/R or just a massive B/R brick)?
-6 hour bike + 30 min run or 1 hour swim+4 hour bike + 30 min run
Are these the wrong questions to be asking?
-What’s your run history? What are you open run race times? I’d say the most important metric is average training volume/frequency throughout the whole year, not just the last couple long runs or bricks.
I’ve only done 1 IM, 3:28 run at the age of 23. I did an open marathon in 3:12 the year prior. Coming from a high school XC background and I know this is much less volume than others would need for a sub 3:30. The bike is my weakness, not the run. If I do it all over again I’d spend less time running fast interval workouts and more consistent volume with zone 3 tempos rather than threshold/vo2max workouts.
1- 50 mpw +/- 10ish every week
2- Same volume, more speed work, occasional big effort (below)
3- Don’t do bricks, I find it more valuable to just do doubles and maintain quality of both sessions
4- not every week, but pretty much every week outside of 1 week before races and the first 4ish weeks after offseason
5- Biggest days are epic bikes, like 200 miles, or trail race runs, like trail marathons or 50 milers. Marathons don’t actually require “1 day off for every mile you raced”, especially if you train through them and don’t go all out.
6- These are good questions, but you are missing one very critical ingredient: SPEED.
Doing a 2 hours run at 10min/mile is great, but it’s not getting you to close an IM at 9min/mile pace. IMO the run is where the intensity needs to be the most polarized, especially on the easy side. My easy runs are slower than IM pace, my long runs are a little bit faster, and workouts are a lot faster. It’s important to be a good runner, not genetically, but through practice.
Not popular to say, but take a look at the finish line at a marathon and notice the difference between the people coming in at 2:30, 3:30, 4:30. There is a very clear size difference. It’s not a secret, and everybody claims to be the exception, but the results don’t lie. If you want to run fast you need to lose any extra weight you are carrying.
There are so many people who bike around 5:30 and run 4:30, or bike 6:00 and run 5:00, probably the majority. Those bike times are fast enough that the person clearly is capable of a much faster marathon even during an IM, even if not talented at running, and I don’t think imperfect run training is to blame.
This is bang on. I am one of those guilty of this. 3.20 open marathon, bike 5:30 and run shit - 4.12 is my best in 3 IM attempts. I previously blamed my build up but looking at it with a clear head I think its all actually a combination of not eating enough and slightly overdoing the first bit of the bike (getting caught up in the fun of the day)!
Since you mentioned that one thing that can **dramatically **change your entire race (and, of course, the run) is your position out of the water… In resume, the sooner you are out of the water it is easier to pace yourself on the bike, you will not find yourself doing power surges to avoid being on drafting groups.
If you get out of the swimming <=1h you should expect at most 100 people by your side on T1 or early on the road, but if you exit the water >1h05 it is a completely different IM.
My N=1 when I was in my late forties doing 4 Ironmans from 2016 to 2019. Female and all under 4 hours: 3:37, 3:48, 3:36, 3:56.
Running is my best sport by far and I ran open marathons before doing triathlons so for me it could be genetics. But I worked hard as well. My problem is that I push the limits even with a coach and I was always coming close to the line of being injured or not. Even had a stress fracture training for my first IM in 2015 doing too much and eating too little. So lots of times where I was recovering.
For the year I did the 3:36 IM in Copenhagen 2018 I can tell you I did some big, long runs and did them fast (for me). That IM was in August and in July I did this:
18.5 mile run 2:32 hrs (8:13 pace)
21 mile tempo run 2:45 hrs (7:53 pace)
22.4 mile run 3 hrs (8:02 pace)
I felt like I was flying a little too close to the sun at times. I had a great coach. She would give me the time I needed to run and I’d try and jam as much mileage as I could into a long run. I always wanted to run more and faster. I was 48yr old. The following year my longest run was a 21 miler at an 8 min miles pace, age 49.
Now in my 50s, there is no way I’m doing that kind of training, pace, mileage sadly. I can’t get away with doing what I did back then in my late 40s. The key is adjusting to what your body can do while avoiding injury.
I also did one day of speed/tempo work during the week for the Ironman run training. Usually around 8-10 miles mid week. Those also were great training and made me faster and stronger.
ETA: because I was a bit injury or niggle prone, my coach never had me do more than 30-36 miles per week. I peaked at 36 miles per week (the week I did the 22.4 mile run in 2018). My bread and butter runs were my 8-10 mile tempo/speed work run midweek and my long run which many times had tempo work. That kept me fast for my gender and age w/o doing 40-50 miles a week (which would have broken me). I did swim after a long run many times. Dragging my sorry self to the pool cursing my coach but then feeling surprisingly nice in the water.
Checking in as a 3 hour IM runner, trying to bring that down to 2:50.
How much run volume are you doing annually?
Never really consider this, but about 1700-1800 miles.
What is your run volume in your peak build up?
40-45 miles per week
Longest brick run leading into Ironman (how long is the bike AND your run for this session)?
There are different versions of long. I do both a 120 mile bike into a 10 mile run, and a 40 mile bike into an 18 mile run.
How many “long runs” (over 2 hours) in training?
Different definitions again… I’d need to run over 18 to get into the 2+ hour range, which I rarely do. But I run 16-18 miles 3 out of every 4 weeks during a build.
What is your longest/biggest training session before race day (either S/B/R or just a massive B/R brick)?
Not the longest maybe, but a big weekend is always my 80/80/8 test. 80 hard on the bike Sat after a normal swim. 80 harder on the bike Sun, followed by an equally hard 8 mile brick run. Not that long time-wise, but the intensity is high.
Are these the wrong questions to be asking?
Not wrong, just not enough. You should also wonder what people’s background is in. Pure runners probably can get away with less upkeep.
And you should also be asking how people run. I don’t believe at all in Z2 stuff on the run for instance. My 80/20 (which I also don’t follow, just theoretically speaking) includes the bike and swim. I don’t run enough miles to waste any of them. And I think that’s true of most people.
2200km in 2022, 2700km in 2021More or less like a marathoner would - I’ll build up to a 35km long run the same way you would with a marathon. This probably isn’t optimal, but my training partner is more of a pure runner and its nice to have the company so I mostly follow his schedule. Typically I’ll add an hour on the bike before the long run closer to the race.Longest brick would be a 160km ride + a 10k run close to race. Though I’ll also do 1hr rides + 35k runs.Long runs every weekend, most of the year, similar to marathon builds - always in Z2.Longest workout is typically a 200 km ride home from the cottageBackground: 41M. Running background before jumping into tri. 680 overall hours in 2022, across all sports. PB is 3:13 in Maryland last year, and 1:26 for a 70.3
My first IM run was 4:43 (2005), but my best is 3:14 (2019). I think I first got under 4 in 2009 with a 3:56 (off the top of my head).
How much run volume are you doing annually? The last few years have been 2000ish miles, but I would say my big running improvement came from doing the BarryP plan at 30-35 miles a week for a long time.
What is your run volume in your peak build up? 50 mpw.
Longest brick run leading into Ironman (how long is the bike AND your run for this session)? I don’t do long bricks in training. My biggest run off the bike might be 6 miles.
How many “long runs” (over 2 hours) in training? As many as possible. I’ve found I need to be running 5-6 hrs a week to support a long run of 2 hrs.
What is your longest/biggest training session before race day (either S/B/R or just a massive B/R brick)? Session is not the word I would use. I prefer to look at the work/duration required for the race and condense the time period to complete the total distance. I do my intense sessions during the week, but then Friday is an “easy day” that typically is a long swim (4.5+K) at race pace or so (which is not all that hard) plus an easy 6-8 miles running. Then the weekend will be one day of a long ride (5-6 hrs) with race pace work plus a short run (30-45 minutes) plus an afternoon swim (1.5-2K). Then the other day will be a long 2-2.5 hr run with some race pace work plus either another short afternoon swim or short easy ride. Over the three days, it’s about 6-7K of swimming, 120-140 miles of riding, and 30+ miles of running. I rarely do the sessions back to back though, and I would love to be able to do my long swim on the weekend as well, but that just doesn’t fit with my schedule.
Are these the wrong questions to be asking? Not necessarily, but it needs to be put in the context of the rest of your training and racing, I think. How much swimming and riding are you doing? Are you pacing and fueling appropriately during the race? What are some of your open running race times, i.e., if you can run a 3 hr marathon but you’re over 4 in an IM, then it’s probably not a running issue.
And you should also be asking how people run. I don’t believe at all in Z2 stuff on the run for instance. My 80/20 (which I also don’t follow, just theoretically speaking) includes the bike and swim. I don’t run enough miles to waste any of them. And I think that’s true of most people.
Agreed about Z2 running. I think a lot of running should definitely be on the easier side, but I’m almost never in what could be defined as Z2, as I can’t even get my HR down that low for running. Easy run is still above Z2 for me but easy bike is bridging on Z1. When you add it all together, the running takes up around a third of training time during peak training so it’s not a problem for the average intensity to be higher.
And you should also be asking how people run. I don’t believe at all in Z2 stuff on the run for instance. My 80/20 (which I also don’t follow, just theoretically speaking) includes the bike and swim. I don’t run enough miles to waste any of them. And I think that’s true of most people.
Agreed about Z2 running. I think a lot of running should definitely be on the easier side, but I’m almost never in what could be defined as Z2, as I can’t even get my HR down that low for running. Easy run is still above Z2 for me but easy bike is bridging on Z1. When you add it all together, the running takes up around a third of training time during peak training so it’s not a problem for the average intensity to be higher.
You may want to reassess your running HR zones, they don’t translate over from running to cycling. I know my recovery runs would be solidly Z3 bike rides based on HR alone.