So I’m about done with the base training phase of Jack Daniel’s marathon program. I am able to do the miles and speed at the heart rate that I should be doing without problem, but the longer runs are still pretty painful by the end (not aerobically at all, but the pounding seems to add up). What I’m growing concerned with is this . . . if I do a 12 mile run at 8:10 at a low heart rate, but I’m still dragging by the end, will I really be able to run a marathon at a minute per mile pace faster? I think temperature is a significant factor and I’ve not done a single intense workout yet, but I’m already suspicious of being able to add that much speed and distance.
FWIW, I’m trying to do a Boston qualifier. My only past running experience is from training and competing Silverman last year. I was doing fast enough runs in training last fall to make me think this would be possible, but it doesn’t change the fact that I’ve only done one run longer than 15 miles in my life. Trying to decide if I’ve bitten off more than I can chew and if Jack Daniels is the best program for me. Any thoughts appreciated . . .
How do you know the HR you are supposed to run at?
Well, table 2.2 on page 39 of my edition has % of max HR for each of Jack Daniel’s training intensities. In practice, I just use my Joe Friel zone 2 as my “E” intensity. Guessing at my max HR and doing the math I see that “E” tops out at a lower HR than I expected. I don’t think this is a huge issue though for two reasons . . .
Using % of Max HR instead of % of threshold HR is a little dubious
I still do 75+% of my running below this new lower cutoff.
It’s never good to just guess your max HR and then use a table to calculate intensities. How many weeks is your program and what is the distance you are running and building up to per week and with your long runs?
I haven’t looked at Daniels in a bit but isn’t the main point of the program based on pace? I know he has some HR tables in there but IIRC pace not HR is the cornestone of Daniels’ Running Formula. Find your VDOT and go from there would be my advice.
It’s never good to just guess your max HR and then use a table to calculate intensities. How many weeks is your program and what is the distance you are running and building up to per week and with your long runs?
The program is 24 weeks, but I took two extra weeks for base to get the buildup I wanted, so 26 for me. I may adjust it based on my progress as I haven’t decided what marathon I will use to attempt my qualifier. If progress is slow, I may consider starting over and doing a later marathon. If progress is good, I may move it up to late Oct/early Nov instead of December, which is my base case.
Last week I ran 48 and I will top out at 60 in about 7 more weeks.
***if I do a 12 mile run at 8:10 at a low heart rate, but I’m still dragging by the end, will I really be able to run a marathon at a minute per mile pace faster? ***
Keep trying, but you may need to adjust your goals. Long runs should be tough toward the end and the Tempo stuff Daniels throws into those long runs should also be tough, but those long runs shouldn’t be so hard they ruin the rest of your week …
For me, Daniels’ paces are honest and difficult, especially “Marathon” pace: Its also an ideal pace, and not always realistic for a full marathon for most casual runners (IMO, casual = < 50 mpw) … I find I race 15 sec. per mile slower than “M” pace for a full marathon and like my “E” pace about 15 sec. off the ideal as well. The “T” and interval paces based on his tables are pretty close for me, though. Could be the lack of mileage
I haven’t looked at Daniels in a bit but isn’t the main point of the program based on pace? I know he has some HR tables in there but IIRC pace not HR is the cornestone of Daniels’ Running Formula. Find your VDOT and go from there would be my advice.
Yes, program is mostly based on pace. I follow the pace first, but make sure my HR does not get out of Z2/E while doing that pace. The VDOT thing is a little weird to me, my VDOT would be quite a bit different depending on which distance I ran to set it. I have mostly been working backwards: picking the VDOT that will let me achieve my marathon goal and using the HR as a check to make sure it is realistic. What seems at odds with my HR, is the non-aerobic portion of the suffering I am getting on runs greater than 10 miles, and this is my concern.
I guess I should be more specific in the feedback that I’m interested in. For a guy who plans to run a 3:10 or faster marathon on a fast course with cool weather in about 18-20 weeks, is it unusual to feel like I’d be lucky to be able to do ~16miles at 8:00/mile in 80F right now?
“For a guy who plans to run a 3:10 or faster marathon on a fast course with cool weather in about 18-20 weeks, is it unusual to feel like I’d be lucky to be able to do ~16miles at 8:00/mile in 80F right now?”
No. You have lots of time. If you can do 16 mi. at 8+ pace now (It shouldn’t be easy) you are probably on the right track. Question is, does that long run keep you from doing decent mileage and doing tempo stuff 3 or 4 days later?
(Just so you know I tried to break 3 hours 2x on 60mpw (not quite enough) and ran 3:04 both times, last time using Daniels, so I only kinda know what I’m talking about).
Keep trying, but you may need to adjust your goals. Long runs should be tough toward the end and the Tempo stuff Daniels throws into those long runs should also be tough, but those long runs shouldn’t be so hard they ruin the rest of your week …
For me, Daniels’ paces are honest and difficult, especially “Marathon” pace: Its also an ideal pace, and not always realistic for a full marathon for most casual runners (IMO, casual = < 50 mpw) … I find I race 15 sec. per mile slower than “M” pace for a full marathon and like my “E” pace about 15 sec. off the ideal as well. The “T” and interval paces based on his tables are pretty close for me, though. Could be the lack of mileage
Thanks for the response, very helpful. Do others find that “M” pace is not achievable in an actual marathon? If so, that would necessitate adjusting my program quite a bit.
One trick I do have up my sleeve is to use Tucson as a qualifier.
Also, as for ruining my week, perhaps I overstated my pain. Saturday night I ran 12 miles and it was mid-70s. I carried a bottle of water and re-filled it once, so I got about 40oz during that run. The last two miles weren’t much fun and I got to thinking that I couldn’t run a whole marathon at this pace, let alone a full minute faster. The next morning (12 hours later), I ran 5 miles at 8:10-ish with no residual pain and then did a second 5 mile run in the evening with no leftover pain from either of the other two runs. So my week definitely wasn’t ruined.
Ahhh, Tucson. Fun course, fun race. Perfect weather this last year, except the 15-20 mile headwind for the entire second half !!! That’s where I ran my last 3:04.
