Question for those Familiar with Daniels and Pfitzinger

Triathlon Forum
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I’m planning out my training for Boston 2013 and am reviewing some past training logs. I have a few mid 2:40 finishes following Daniels Running Formula “A” plan, both from this first and second editions of his book. They are pretty similar, some interval paced stuff early on, followed by a bunch of tempo work, tempo work mixed into long runs, and marathon pace work.

It had been 3+ years since I’d done ANY running faster than interval pace stuff, but this past fall made a half PR the goal and basically followed a Daniels 10k plan with some added mileage. This meant weekly repetition pace work and I had a big PR of 1:14.

So now in planning for Boston, do I go back to one of the Daniels “A” plans that led to 3 very consistent finishes and always left me feeling “fit”, just not “fast”? Or do I consider the “B” plan from Daniels first book which includes some repetition work in the first 6 week cycle considering this summer’s repetition work led to a big breakthrough for me? That plan then transitions to some interval work over the second 6 week block and later lots of tempo and marathon pace stuff.

Or do I consider Pftizinger’s 70 week plan which has lots of tempo and marathon pace stuff earlier on but brings in the interval work closer to race day?

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Two other plans you might want to consider is the Brad Hudson Plan detailed in the book Run Faster from the 5k to Marathon. This puts much more focus on specific race paces. You do speed work and build to longer repeats as race nears. Another variation of that is the Hanson" Marathon Project. Again a bit lower focus so on a 70 mile week you will put less focus on the 20 milers and more specific marathon pace sets. The thought is that long run should train you for the last 16-18 miles not the first. They focus on 8-10 mile marathon tempo mid week to keep you in a constant fatigue You are experienced so you can work well on both these plans. I used a Daniels like program many years ago to go sub 2:30, but all of these are still variations of the Lydiard based programs of the 50’s and 60"s. I think both the Hudson plan, and the Hanson Plan work well with older athletes. Again these plans are only templates not something that is followed word for word. You should now be experienced enough as a runner and know your body well enough to know where to add and subtract from the plan to fit your needs. The Hudson plan is big on adjustments which I think is critical for success. A slight change in philosophy should take you to the next level. Just remember that plans are strictly a templates and not one size fit.

http://futrmultisport.com/

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Thanks, I’ll pick your brain a bit further if you don’t mind. I’m 29, marathon PR of 2:43, previous half PR was 1:17 until the 1:14 this fall. Four consecutive years of 2,000-2,500 miles. And without exaggeration, in those 4 years I did exactly no running faster than Daniels Interval pace work (which translates into about 5k race pace).

I felt very fit, just had no speed. I felt given my marathon times, I should have faster 5k-half PR’s. My flat out mile time was probably pretty close to my 5k race pace, I just had no “speed ease” as I heard someone once call it. So this fall I mixed it up, hit the track regularly mixing in interval and repetition work (which is closer to open mile pace) and over the course of the summer felt I added another gear to my top end. I set a 10k PR and a huge half PR.

There seems to be a bit of difference between Pftizinger and Daniels. Pfitzinger seems to start with lots of tempo and MP stuff, and then add in VO2 max stuff in the last 6 weeks. I could see how that would leave one feeling sharp, I just am more used to a plan with more race specific work in the last 6 weeks.

Daniels A plan has lots of VO2 max stuff in the first 6 weeks, then progresses to tempo work and later MP work, so from less specific to more with regards to specific marathon fitness.

Daniels B plan as a similar progression but starts with a bunch of repetition work in the first 6 weeks, progresses to VO2 max stuff in the next 6 weeks and then in the last 6 weeks is more specific to MP work.

Daniels B plan is currently appealing because of the gains I saw from some repetition work this summer. So by race day rep work will be 12 weeks behind me, but interval work will only be 6 weeks in my past. Following the A plan, by race day you wouldn’t have done anything faster than tempo work for a full 12 weeks.

Not that you need “speed” to run a marathon, but I found that work very helpful this summer from a biomechanical standpoint. Plus I think there’s something to be said for when you raise the top end, everything else comes up too.

Thoughts?

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Looking the Pfitzinger plan he is doing a Vo2 max workout 6,4,2, weeks out. They were 600 meters at 5k pace. He has a lot of tempo stuff at the 7th and 5th weeks out. He has 16 mile marathon pace run at 6 weeks out. He also has races 4and2 weeks out of 8-15k which also works as higher paced tempo. Daniels throws more tempo and race specific things into the mix. The weeks the Pfitzinger plan has Vo 2 max workouts which only translate into 3000 meters but there are also races scheduled in those weeks . Both plans are similar in a lot of the basics. Daniels has tempos every week no racing. Both guys are highly respected Phd’s. The Hudson plan has workouts focusing more on half marathon and marathon pace the last six weeks similar to Daniels. The Pfitzinger plan has you racing more which may give you a bit more motivation and have you. My thoughts are that you are seing results with the speed workout so a hybrid program which Pfitzingers looks to be maybe what you need to use at this time. Look there is no right or wrong here. Execute the training and adjust when and if you need to as well as listening to your body and you will see results. Racing a bit more is fun and allows you to achieve some times which does not put all of the training eggs in one basket. This way if you get a few PR’s along the way and the weather turns ugly on Patriots day which it can do you achieved PR’s or had fast races along the way. You also may need a change from the daniels plan as after a few years you learn to become better at specific workouts and may not improve in races.

http://futrmultisport.com/

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“Racing a bit more is fun and allows you to achieve some times which does not put all of the training eggs in one basket. This way if you get a few PR’s along the way and the weather turns ugly on Patriots day which it can do you achieved PR’s or had fast races along the way.”

I’ll generally do at least one, sometimes two races in the buildup to a marathon, but I get a lot more confidence from nailing a solid multi week training block than from running a good B race. I don’t like tapering for a B race and sacrificing mileage, but it screws with my confidence when I run a subpar race because my legs are tired (even if I know why I ran subpar).

“You also may need a change from the daniels plan as after a few years you learn to become better at specific workouts and may not improve in races.”

Yes, that’s part of it. I feel like I’ve gotten “good” at that Daniels plan. So either using the other Daniels plan or Pfitzinger may both make it more interesting for me, and provide a new training stimulus. I am just cautious to stray from a plan that has yielded good results in the past :-/

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Racing or Time Trails provides a few things it gives you are recovery week, gives you a gauge of where the training is going and what nmay needed to be adjusted. It lets you try things from a strategic standpoint such as negative that gives you confidence for a peak race. Racing slightly tired also teaches you to race tired at the end of a peak race. You would not use a full taper but rest for a few days before the prep races. It does mimic the last few days but that is also good as it gets you prepared for that as well. While race wek may look similar the weeks before are normal training blocks. Funny that it messes up with your confuidence because it should act the other way. If I run a certain time tired , I think wow that was with minimal taper and it boosts my confidence. I also try to accomplish one or two things that I want to try in a test race which makes the race eventful regardless of time. Again not sure of your running background but running in high school,college you learn to race and train somewhat fatigued.

Now my thoughts on changing the plan. Everyone continues to evolve as an athleteand just because the plan worked 4 times does not mean that it works the 5th time. Changing the stimulus or using a hybrid of the two plans may give you changes to get past a plateau. The Pfitzinger plan is a bit different from Daniels in the fact that there is a bit more racing in the last 7 races. 2 races and one MP run and the Vo2 max sets are short workouts during those race weeks. The rest of the time there are a lot of similar workouts. You might want to look at the Brad Hudson plan which is similar to Daniels to some degree but offers gets more specific race speed. The fact that you did the training you did this fall will carry over to your marathon training. It also means you were not the same runner you were on the last attempt with the Daniles Plan. They both are trying to get similar goals acomplished so differences of the program will not be radically different. Key elements will be seen in all marathon plans. Alsoone of the reasons the speedwork for a marathon plan is 5k pace and the half marathon pace for tempos is that recovery can be kept to a minimum. The whole point of a workout is to be able to do a workout and repeat training with consistency. If someone does a long run and it taks them 5 -6 days to recover then consisitency drops. Paces are set so you can recover quickly.

http://futrmultisport.com/

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I was an average runner in high school, rowed crew in college and picked up tris around that time. 10 years later after some decent road race results on the run training of a triathlete I decided to go back to being more of just a runner and have had some good results in the last few years. So I certainly don’t have the experience of competitions 15-20 times throughout a season like a more experience XC or track runner.

I could understand that racing tired trains you to race the last miles of a longer race when you’ll be tired. But if you race 2 weeks out from the marathon like Pfitzinger recommends and it goes poorly, there’s not much you can do at that point to change up your training.

Pfitzinger really stresses that mid-week mid-distance run and a weekend long run is either a standard E/L run or something with MP in it. I’m probably somewhere between his 55-70 and his 70-85 plan, but the main difference seems to be a run on Monday as opposed to rest, which I would do anyway, and then the recovery runs and long runs are just a bit longer, the general training cycles are roughly the same. So I don’t think I’d have any trouble drafting a plan that splits the two.

Pfitzinger is big on strides, are those to be done within a run, fartlek style? Or at the end of a run once you’ve completed the day’s prescribed mileage?

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Ok I looked at Pfitzinger plan a bit closer. He has the races on a Saturday and long run Sunday which trains you not only to race tired but complete that long run with slightly depleted Glycogen Stores. He is keeping you in somewhat of a fatigued state to train body and mind for late stages of the marathon. Two weeks out as you are ready to begin taper he has one last race as a means to bring you out of the volume for one good effort. Basically what he is doing is making the easy days easier and giving you a harder effort. This effort of 35 minutes roughly for you should be relatively easy and require some recovery but not drastic amounts .
His use of striders is not only common but extremely valuable as it teaches you running economy and works on form. It also helps develop and or keep turnover speed. Since you worked on developing speed this fall I would suggest strides on the easy days once or twice per week to maintain that turnover. You can do a few 100’s at the end of the workout or sprinkle them in fartlek style. I vary it but if in middle of workout I allow for full recovery . 100’s should only be 15 seconds or so so 45 to 60 seconds should give adequate recovery.

After looking at both plans and being very familiar with a few other variations. Have you given the thought to doing the Daniels Plan again on 80 miles per week rather 70? Plan A is very aerobic and more aerobic stimulus may be able to generate positive results. Both plans are similar in long runs and tempos, but Pfitzinger likes more racing and there is value to that now that you are gaining more experience.
Out of curiousity, What about height and weight as that effects volume? The background in crew gives me an idea you may be a bit taller. Hey that’s not a bad thing as I am 6’3" and ran under 2:30 but adjustments need to be made. higher mileage is tougher on a taller runner because of the pounding.

http://futrmultisport.com/

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A few things:

  1. The idea of a race one day followed by a long run the next day makes sense after reading your explanation. Saturday races can be tough to find though. Could I race Sunday and do the long run Monday pushing everything back a day but keeping the sequence the same?

  2. The idea of using striders to develop, or maintain, speed without devoting a day to repetition work makes sense. If done fartlek style, let’s say within a 50 minute run, would you do something like 20 minutes easy, 10x15 second striders, 45 second recoveries, 20 minutes easy?

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Sorry, forgot to address the last part of your post. I’m about 6’1", low 160s right now but get down to mid to high 150s once focused training resumes.

If I do follow Daniels again the plan was to try to bring the mileage up a bit. Pfitzinger is seeming more intriguing for a few reasons. I’ve always felt fit following Daniels, but with nothing faster than tempo work in the last 12 weeks, I never felt sharp. I first considered following Daniels B plan because that has repetition work in the first 66 weeks and then interval stuff in the next 6 weeks. So the plus is come race day it will have only been 6 weeks since having done some uptempo stuff. The minus is that I don’t know if it’s worth devoting the firsy 6 weeks of focused training to include repetition work, and how realistic it is to think I’ll be able to get out for 200s and 400s in December and January in New England.

Pfitzinger has that VO2 max stuff much closer to race day which may give me that sharp feeling I’ve felt lacking. I also have 2 great local races 4 and 2 weeks out from race day which would line up perfectly with the Pfitzinger schedule.

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Yes you can do the long run Monday if Sunday race. Not always easy as it becomes work week. You then would have to move everythingg back a day to get you on scheduled but that is easy to catch up with over a week or so… He has recovery days built in so you just stay with recovery for a few days and resume schedule when ready. As far as the weather, while I live in Florida now all of my fast running was done when I was much younger and living in PA. You can always do strides or even repeats for that matter it a parking lot. They are usually plowed. We used to do them early morning and sometimes even on a 400 meter straight away. Be creative. You also can do some of the early season repetition sets on a 200-400 meter hill done at 5 k pace. This gives added strength. If you have questionable footing you may be able to finsd a safe road up hill.
The old rule was to build speed and then use that to get stronger over longer distances. That is why you se tempo’s half marathon pace etc. The new philosophy is to keep some of that speed. You will see Alberto Salazar’s Oregon Project use a lot of fast racing at 5k, 10k and evn miles at specific times of the year to get ready for a marathon. A few other things involved with racing is that it gives you certain hormonal additives that you can not get in a workout The Oregon project often uses an early season 5k race followed by a interval set. Due to the hormanal increase the athlete gets extra benefits out of the training. You recover coming out as you nomal out and get a nice training stimulus.
As for the strides I would do it more as 30-35 minutes easy run and then 8-10x15-20 seconds with 40-60 seconds recovery and then light cooldown of 5-10 minutes.

http://futrmultisport.com/

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It wouldn’t be too hard for me to rearrange things to keep the routine of race followed by long run so that’s probably what I would do as that’s what the plan calls for. And I can certainly be creative with intervals if need be, especially with the use of hills. We have plenty of those here in MA, if I was going to work hill repeats into one day, would the mid week mid-distance run be a good place to do that? I thought I could include that through the first 6 weeks.

The “old rule” you describe of building speed early and using that to get stronger over longer distances seems to more closely align with the Daniels plan. In the Pfitzinger plan, not counting the last 3 weeks in 5 of the 6 weeks before that, there is some VO2 max work, I could see that helping me to maintain some of the sharpness I’ve felt lacking following Daniels.

Two more questions specific to the Pfitzinger plan. I am a little nervous about the mileage so early on, while I’ve maintained 40-50 miles per week through a little bit of an off season, that’s mostly been through running ~6 miles a day and the occasional run of 8-9 or so. Pfitzinger has a 15 miler in week 1 and then a 16 miler with 8 at marathon pace in week 2. That’s a bit intimidating so early one.

Also, Pfitzinger’s LT workouts generally say “9 miles with 4 at LT pace” or “10 miles with 5 at LT pace”. Should those LT miles be one continuos effort? Daniels mixes in single steady tempo efforts with mile repeat cruise intervals, or calls for something like 3 x 2 miles at LT with 2 minutes rest or something like that. Thoughts?

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Two more questions specific to the Pfitzinger plan. I am a little nervous about the mileage so early on, while I’ve maintained 40-50 miles per week through a little bit of an off season, that’s mostly been through running ~6 miles a day and the occasional run of 8-9 or so. Pfitzinger has a 15 miler in week 1 and then a 16 miler with 8 at marathon pace in week 2. That’s a bit intimidating so early one.

Be creative here. This is just a template so bridge to it’s mileage slowly. What he is doing is merging the athlete with existing or previous plans. Daniels is starting it more from Zero as to why it is 6 weeks longer Scale the workouts back slightly in the earlier weeks to coincide with your current fitness level. Gradually build to the plan. Also for example on week 2 a 4-5 mile marathon paced run gets some of the stimulus and is less intimidating at that juncture. Training plans are just templates and usually leave the athlete with too much or too little. Learn your body and learn to adjust the template to fit your ability. You may want to have a preplan build up before the starting it and making it a 24 week plan.

Pfitzinger is using the tempos as straight tempos both Daniels and Brad Hudson’s plans ( which I think may be one of the better genral plans out there for the age grouper) mix straight tempos with broken tempos bot ideas work. The broken tempos helps you start and refocus a few times which happens in a race. Again if you feel comfortable with broken tempos mix tem up on alternative weks. It is still getting you the training stimulus. As I have mentioned to you before this is just a template so there will be the need for adjustments . The variety also helps motivation.

http://futrmultisport.com/

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Thanks again, I’ll adjust the plan as need be in the early weeks and should be on schedule relatively quickly.

I’ve always seen good returns on including hill repeats, do you think the mid-week mid-distance run would be a good spot to include them? I don’t want to turn a recovery day into a workout, and am not sure I want to put them within the week’s long run, so thought that would be the best spot for them.

With regards to the tempo stuff, if I choose to break it up, should I include a little more work at tempo pace to bring the total workload up a little? So if the plan called for 4 miles at tempo substituting that with 2 x 2.5 miles, or if it calls for 5 miles substituting that with 6 x 1 mile cruise intervals? I just don’t think 5x1 is the same workload as 5 steady.

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Mark,

Monday (12/10/12) is Boston Marathon day minus 18 weeks. Have you come up with a training plan yet? I’m stuck between Phitzinger’s, Hanson’s and now Canova’s theories.

Also, now that I’m up here in Boston, a lot of my winter training will be on a treadmill. How much outdoor training is the minimum needed for Boston?

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I’ve settled on a hyrbrid of Pfitzinger and Daniels, mostly following a Pfitzinger plan, but with some of Daniels’ specific workouts that I know mixed in when appropriate. For example, this was week 1 for me and Pfitzinger had a Lactate Thresold workout of 4 miles at LT pace. Daniels has a staple workout of 20min at E/L-20min at T-20min at E/L. So that was a good 9 mile day for me and got roughly the same amount of LT work done. So it’s a Pfitzinger plan, with some Daniels workouts.

A few things led me to settle on Pfitzinger. While I understand the purpose of the Interval work in the first 6 weeks and think for many people it has value, for me, the fact that neither of the next two 6 week blocks had any running faster than Tempo pace always left me feeling a little flat (that would mean come race day it had been 3 months since I had run faster than Tempo pace). Also, there are other shorter spring road races I want to do. Being in marathon shape makes those races easy, but has never left me feeling sharp for them.

So with Pfitzinger calling for some VO2max (or Interval) work later in the plan, that appealed to me. Additionally, Pfitzinger calls for a couple races 2 and 4 weeks out from race day and there are two local races (Norwell 4 miler and Cohasset 10k) that line up perfectly with that schedule.

When you say “how much running should be done outside” my recommendation would be “at least some, the more the better”. I’ve found no difference in my fitness between doing 100% of my running on the road or 100% of my running on the treadmill (tempo workouts are always done on the treadmill no matter the season).

But I think the road beats your legs up a little bit more. This is both good and bad, the bad is you have to pay attention to aches and pains and your recovery. The good is that Boston beats your legs up so going in with legs that have been toughened up on the road helps. I’ll always try to get my long run done outside on the weekends, sometimes every other run for the week gets done on the treadmill. I don’t mind the cold, but cold and dark sucks. So during the week, unless it’s a day I am working from home and can run mid-day my running is all done on the treadmill. On the weekends I’ll wait until the sun is out and head outside (unless there is snow or ice, no value in risking an injury running in that).

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Hey Pat,

So a year later, circling back on this thread. I followed the Pftizinger plan almost to the letter last year for the build to Boston and while I PR’ed in 2:42, I didn’t love the plan. I was at peak lifetime mileage with steady weekly averages of close to 70mpw, so I think that alone had a lot to do with the PR.

The big thing for me was that mid-week, mid-distance run, both from a fatigue standpoint and a scheduling standpoint I simply dreaded that workout and I often felt overly sore and fatigued. I know marathon training involves accumulating fatigue, but this left me to the point of feeling close to injury and being over-tired.

I am very seriously considering following the Hansons plan this go around. I’ve essentially followed Daniels twice and Pftizinger once. So part of my motivation is just to try something new. And part of it is that I felt Daniels worked pretty well and that Hansons is more similar to Daniels, but slightly simplified, as compared to Pfitzinger.

It’s speed work early on, which Daniels calls Interval work, followed by strength work, which Daniels calls Tempo work. Hansons trademark is a weekly tempo workout, but this is what Daniels calls Marathon Pace. With a new baby and an overall crazier schedule, the simplicity of Hansons is appealing and I like that it is similar to something hive had success with previously while still presenting a somewhat new challenge.

I will bump up the mileage in the Hansons plan with an easy run on their scheduled off day.

What’s your plan?

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I am also trying to settle on a plan for Boston this year and am leaning towards Pfitzinger up to 85mi plan (I have previously done Hudson’s book, been coached directly by Hudson, and done my own thing for a couple marathons). I liked following Hudson’s book okay at the time, but don’t really want to go back to it now. Being coached by Brad was quite a bit more difficult than his programs in the book, lots of long runs with 20k+ at M pace or close to it. I really would like to try Daniels because I like the flexibility of scheduling your week as you see fit. One thing I don’t get about Daniel’s plan though is the difficulty of some of the workouts. For example, in week 17 of the A plan he has a ~21 mile run with 35 to 40min at T pace, broken up throughout. That’s fine, except when I look at the recommended T pace it is slightly faster than my half PR. Just seems like an impossible workout unless you were actually in a rested state and a race situation. Can other people do this?

One other note, somewhat unrelated, is that I am jealous you had a big breakthrough after adding speedwork! I have no speed at all, so tried to add it hoping for a breakthrough after Boston this year. I’ve managed two real injuries since, one of which I’m trying to get through in time to start Boston training again. Maybe I am getting too old for speedwork!

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I really think mileage is about 90% of the battle. The rest is just a matter of mixing in the important quality work in a way that keeps you motivated and interested in doing the work each week.

I’ve got a newborn at home and a pretty inconsistent schedule, so the predictability and regularity of the Hansons plan is appealing to me. Also, it’s something different, and that has me interested. It’s sort of like the reason a new bike makes you faster, the bike isn’t faster, you just want to ride it more.

As for those Daniels workouts, I trained for 2 marathons using the Daniels A plan, a 2:43 at Bay State and a 2:52 at Boston in the heat in 2012, which while my slowest time, given the conditions may have been my best marathon ever. Those tempo/long workouts are daunting, but become surprisingly tolerable. You do A LOT of tempo work with Daniels, between a tempo run and a long run with tempo miles in it you may end up with 10-12 miles at tempo pace during the week. Those tempo/long runs, if you are doing the easy/long portion at the appropriate easy pace just feel like tempo runs with lots of easy base miles mixed in.

A 18 miler with 2-3 tempo miles early and 2-3 tempo miles late looks impossible, but it never found those late tempo miles much harder than the early ones as long as you kept the middle portion of the race under control. I’ve done these workouts in prep for a sub 2:45 race and I’ve trained others with them who were looking to break 3:45 and I think they are more daunting on paper than in practice.

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That 2:52 in the heat was crazy impressive, has to be worth a solid sub 2:40 in good conditions. Good color on the long/hard runs of the Daniels plan, thanks! Probably best not to get hung up on the specific paces and just do the work as best you can anyway. Still, given my speed weakness I think doing Pfitz or the Elite JD is probably the best match. Both have a fair amount of 5k work, Pfitz emphasizes frequent strides as well (maybe JD tells you to do these elsewhere in the book without repeating it in the programs, been years since I actually read it). Maybe I’ll do Pfitz for Boston and Elite JD for the Fall when I would have the full 24wks.

In any case, shoot me a note if you are going to do some weekend runs on the course and want some company this Spring.