Ive been scouring the forums here non stop lately reading up on the swim. I tend to focus on what fast swimmers are saying about swimming fast, and how to do it. Ive read everything from, “you need to get your stroke rate down to about 8-9 strokes per 25 yards” to “you need to get your stroke rate up to about 65-70 strokes per minute, thats what FOP swimmers do”… If you put those two together, the swimmer swimming 8-9 strokes per 25 would be swimming about a 30 second hundred every time, so what gives? What is the truth, and how does that truth apply not only to fast swimmers, but swimmers that started as adults who are working to become fast?
I was watching college swimming on the big ten network and just about all of them were taking 16-19 strokes per 25
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The thread subject and your username had me thinking this thread was headed in a very different direction.
And upon edit I realise the problem here is that you might be mixing two types of stroke length - some count a stroke as one cycle of left and right arm, others as just a single arm.
so instead of 8-9 strokes per 25 you mean 16-18 … then 65-70 strokes per minute makes much more sense …
~68 strokes per 100 - so 1 minute 100s … still a tough pace to hit !
Ive been scouring the forums here non stop lately reading up on the swim.
Then you know that it’s all about the swagger™! sigh
In my opinion though I don’t think there is any panacea. It’s what works best for you…
If you can get to the point where you can achieve to 8-9 strokes per 25 yards then you’ll have some incredible strength and technique.
If you can build your stroke rate up to 65-70 strokes per minute then you’ll be well suited to open water* - but I’m not sure you’ll be pulling the same 8-9 strokes per 25 yards.
*I guess …I haven’t actually done any open water swimming (yet)
The thread subject and your username had me thinking this thread was headed in a very different direction.
Beat me to it! One of the better thread tittles I have seen.
And upon edit I realise the problem here is that you might be mixing two types of stroke length - some count a stroke as one cycle of left and right arm, others as just a single arm.
so instead of 8-9 strokes per 25 you mean 16-18 … then 65-70 strokes per minute makes much more sense …
~68 strokes per 100 - so 1 minute 100s … still a tough pace to hit !
Ive been scouring the forums here non stop lately reading up on the swim.
**Then you know that it’s all about the swagger™! sigh **
In my opinion though I don’t think there is any panacea. It’s what works best for you…
If you can get to the point where you can achieve to 8-9 strokes per 25 yards then you’ll have some incredible strength and technique.
If you can build your stroke rate up to 65-70 strokes per minute then you’ll be well suited to open water* - but I’m not sure you’ll be pulling the same 8-9 strokes per 25 yards.
*I guess …I haven’t actually done any open water swimming (yet)
Careful! The hotman has google alerts…he will be arriving shortly…
The 8-9 strokes per length changes when turnover increases. You will not find anyone holding that low stoke per length count while swimming with high strokes per minute. Look at this video… Jack Conger breaking the 30 year old HS 500yrd free record. He is taking about 14 strokes per length swimming ~:50-:51/100…but he is also pushing off hard and coming up at the flags. A weaker flip turn , and he may be ~16/length… I’m sure he could have a sub 10/length during practice/WU, but not while racing. There will be much variation amongst many swimmers, but it seems the problem is being an extreme outlier.
The first thing is to understand that swimmers should be striving for their optimum stroke count, not the lowest stroke count possible. Stroke count x stroke tempo = time (minus the walls, of course). For some, taking less strokes might help them improve. For others, they may need to increase their tempo. It is highly individual and depends on where they are on the learning curve and what type of stroke they use. An effective 6 beat kicker can swim with a much longer stroke and slower stroke rate to get it done. Someone that has a 2 beat will rely more on tempo. Katie Ledecky and Janet Evans both went about the same time in the 800 m (8:14 vs. 8:16) and Evans took 20% more strokes. If you took out the walls (Ledecky was much better), Evans actually swam faster. Don’t believe anyone that tells you that taking less strokes is always the answer. Given that, someone that is a beginner will probably need to improve in both areas. If they are taking 25 strokes (12.5 cycles) per length at 1.8 stroke tempo (sorry, I like seconds per cycle), they have a lot of room for improvement for both. Someone that is taking 25 strokes at a 1.0 rate can only realistically improve SC.
Here is a set that swimmers can experiment with as part of their warm up:
6 x 50’s with :15 rest descending 1 - 6 holding the same stroke count
Do it a few different times on different days and play with SR and SC to determine what elicits the fastest times with respect to effort level. Tempo trainers are cheap (around $30) and are a great tool to help swimmers figure this all out.
Jeff’s Bio
Careful! The hotman has google alerts…he will be arriving shortly…
I’m sure he will. If I have to hear one more time how I should be running and swimming like Michael Jordan …
If he swims anything like Shaq then I think I’ll stick to what I know.
I was watching college swimming on the big ten network and just about all of them were taking 16-19 strokes per 25
What events? 100, or 200?
or 1500? Because those are pretty different, and stroke counts for sprints and distance events are typically not the same.
Also, how do you count “one stroke”?
Look at this video… Jack Conger breaking the 30 year old HS 500yrd free record. He is taking about 14 strokes per length swimming ~:50-:51/100…but he is also pushing off hard and coming up at the flags. A weaker flip turn , and he may be ~16/length… I’m sure he could have a sub 10/length during practice/WU, but not while racing. There will be much variation amongst many swimmers, but it seems the problem is being an extreme outlier.
Great video. Thanks for the link. A comment to the video says he is 6’5". Can you imagine how long his wing span is, and how long his stroke is? And then compare his rate to Janet Evens who was much shorter. I’m sure he can swim with fewer SPL and a higher SPM, but he has found what works best for him and his physiology at that specific distance.
I have never been able to maintain the low SPL that elite pool swimmers can, so at any given speed my SPM is higher. When you swim in calm OW conditions you can swim at approximately the same SPL & SPM as in a pool, but once conditions get rough a higher SPM rate is more effective. If you are swimming with a lower stroke per length then you will find yourself fighting the conditions more than if you shorten your stroke a bit and increase your stroke rate. With a shorter stroke you’ll be able to retain momentum and make maintaining a constant speed easier in rough conditions. What works in the controlled environment of a pool does not necessarily work in the wide range of conditions that we encounter in OW.
As for his turns he actually comes to the surface very quickly. he uses only one quick dolphin kick and goes straight into a 6 beat kick to bring him to the surface.
The thread subject and your username had me thinking this thread was headed in a very different direction.
+1
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Careful! The hotman has google alerts…he will be arriving shortly…
I’m sure he will. If I have to hear one more time how I should be running and swimming like Michael Jordan …
If he swims anything like Shaq then I think I’ll stick to what I know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1q1y4HghBM]
Hotman is here! I laughed and laughed when I read this thread. Great video but Shaq is NOT SWAGGERING! He is doing a bad version of"catch and pull". Someone should have just told Shaq to swim like he walks. SLOW DOWN(his stroke), turn his shoulders,lengthen his stroke and GLIDE. He may look slower but he will GO FASTER! Interestingly enough Phelps is not swaggering much either. Pro basketball players have the best swaggers.
Just about all of the events, men and women. I never counted less than 16 except for after the dive. I wish they would show more of the 500 though, they kept going to commercial.
One stroke is one arm pull
Hotman, do you think we’ll get a video of your swagger anytime soon? I’ve watched Jordan a few times and still don’t understand what you mean. Can you show us?
Edit: I think phelps probably isn’t swaggering because he’s fast.
I remembered watching this race and thought the numbers were different. M 200 scy fr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb65tkCaDSo
winner Dax Hill
9, 12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 16, 16 if i counted right. i’d say 16 is more like sprint stroke count for these guys anyway.
The thread subject and your username had me thinking this thread was headed in a very different direction.i…see whatcha did there.
I remembered watching this race and thought the numbers were different. M 200 scy fr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb65tkCaDSo
winner Dax Hill
9, 12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 16, 16 if i counted right. I’d say 16 is more like sprint stroke count for these guys anyway.
Ya, we would all like to go 1:32.5 for 200 free. Shoot, I’d be happy with a sub-1:40. Those guys are flying.
You know, every year there are a few 100 male college and HS swimmers going under 1:40 for 200 free, which is faster most pro tri-guys have ever swum. I’ve always wondered why so very, very few top swimmers ever become pro tri-guys. Potts and Tommy Zafares are the only former top NCAA swimmers I can think of, although I’m sure there are a few more. I guess most of them just don’t like to run, and/or they’re just burned out from training 5 hrs/day.
Great video of that HS kid. Two things I noticed:
- Double breath into the wall
- Double breath out of the wall ??
Seems like overcoming oxygen deprivation is the emerging trend. In the olden days, a lot of us used to hold our breaths to race faster.
Great video of that HS kid. Two things I noticed:
- Double breath into the wall
- Double breath out of the wall ??
Seems like overcoming oxygen deprivation is the emerging trend. In the olden days, a lot of us used to hold our breaths to race faster.
Sun Yang took down Grant Hackett’s decade old record using a double breath in and out of walls, and randomly in the middle as well. Now Conger takes down Jeff Kostoff’s 30yr old record doing double breaths in and out of walls…so, yeah, quite a nice emergence… 
Hotman, do you think we’ll get a video of your swagger anytime soon? I’ve watched Jordan a few times and still don’t understand what you mean. Can you show us?
Edit: I think phelps probably isn’t swaggering because he’s fast.
If anyone wants a video of me swaggering on land OR water they can TAKE one of me! The catch is THEY have to have a video made of THEM swaggering too! I live in Penticton,B.C. I am pretty sure that there must be someone else from Penticton on ST,although I have not seen anyone that says they are here. Anyhow get back to me and we can meet,if you want.
As I have said before people can be fast when they are swaggering or not swaggering,it is just that swaggering is ten times easier,funner and less stressful!