Question about 'Elite' personal trainers and 'Elite' triathlon coaches

Triathlon Forum
1

The Americanpeople have a vibe that ‘elite’ (or not so elite) triathlon coaches are selling themselves short (not charging enough) for their services. The Americanpeople further believe that the typical West LA/Brentwood ‘elite’ (or not so elite) personal traner is making a killing providing a relatively simple service (personal training) 60 minutes a session a few times a week, where triathlon coaches are scrounging around for scraps and expected to be “on-call” via e-mail, voicemail 24/7…and not collecting any $$ for that time.

Deluxe personal training is certainly more personalized than what the typical elite triathlon coach can provide. However, triathlon coaching is infinately more complex than showing someone how to execute a proper squat or tricep kickback.

I am interested in the economics between the two and the disparity…in terms of knowledge, complexity, personal service and $$ between the two.

Does anyone know the approximate hourly rate charged by a ‘Top-Notch’ personal trainer?

and

Does anyone know how much a “Top-Notch” triathlon coach would charge John Q. Public for the most deluxe personalized training program?

2

I think there is ample evidence that the most knowledgeable coaches are not those who charge the most, in triathlon at least.

3

Supply and demand.

4

I agree.

But if triathlon coaching is your business, it is just that = a business, not a charity.

Personal trainers are very precise in their billing = you show up 15 minutes late, you’re still being charged for an hour. I know some bill in packages 6 weeks, 8 weeks, etc, the same way a triathlon coach would do. I’ve just got a vibe that as a group, triathlon coaches lack the killer instinct of their personal training counterparts.

5

The highest priced personal trainer I know of: Jackie Warner of Beverly Hills Skysport Spa & Fitness and star of Bravo’s “Work Out.” She charges $300 per hour.

But Jackie’s a big time outlier. I would say most “high end” SoCal trainers (like the other trainers at her gym) are $75-$100/hour. $100 is reasonable for a West LA/Brentwood trainer.

The highest priced tri coach I know of: Joe Friel, who is $1500/month.

I would say that $300/hour and $1500 a month are equivalent, equally absurd, and equally overinflated in terms of value (or lack thereof).

I think $100/hr would equate to $500/month (using our highest priced individuals above), which is what Gordo used to (and may still) charge. However, I do not know of any other coaches that charge that much, which would seem to support your ideal that personal trainers are charging more for their time than tri coache are.

$75/hr would then work out to $375 month, which would be on the high end for tri coaching, but closer to what I know some elite (truly elite) coaches charge (less by a tad in some cases and more by a tad in others - $350-$400).

6

That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!!

7

I suppose it depends on what you get for what you pay. Jackie I suppose has the bling factor and this drives the price up, kinda like the insanely priced hairdressers to the stars.

The tri coaching thing is varied, some people just buy an online package based on some data they provide up to the fully personal coach. Having looked at Joe’s prices on line it seems a little steep for what you get.

If you were at the pointier end of your sport it might be worth doing if you could find a coach who could offer you something that might give you the edge, but everybody out there seems to flogging the same type of package.

For the average guy, we can get results for free or pay a little bit and get a plan which takes out some of the guess work. Doing this I have managed to steadily make progrees over two years, sub 2:30 OD, sub 2:20 OD, IM complete 11;30, Half IM sub 5, IM sub 11. Paying nothing and I am on a steady imporvement curve, now no awesome results (certainly nothing like Rappstars) but enough to make me happy.

Would a coah accelarate my performance or improve them? Don’t know but Joe would need something pretty cool to make me stump that cash, eg be the difference between say 10:50 IM and 9:45 in one year, otherwise I will just keep on keeping on

8

So basically: Swim, bike and run as much as you can and you get faster, and take a day off when tired? That’s my approach.

9

but everybody out there seems to flogging the same type of package.

I am wondering if the “same type of package” is the TrainingPeaks template? This is Joe Friels brainchild if I remember correctly. If a majority of triathlon coaches use this as the backbone of their traning programs, the Americanpeople think it is not neccessarily a bad thing, but in a way lacks originality, authenticity and personal service.

I know Jordan cited Joe as the most expensive he knows of, but I would be willing to bet the $1500 is primarily online coaching with some deluxe ‘extras’ included. Personal trainers work 100% one on one/face to face with their clients. Triathlon coaches work with their clients primarily online/at a distance with little personal interaction between the coach and the athlete. So, how much would it cost someone like the Americanpeople/John Q. Public to have a guy like Brett Sutton or Joel Filliol as my personal coach with one on one training for 16 hours per month (4X per week = 1 hour per session) ?

As an example, the most valuable coaching I ever received was swim coaching from Desert Dude = in the pool one on one. So useful that I never need swim coaching again: just remember what Desert Dude told me to do. However, what I was told to do never could have been learned via e-mail, online training template or thrashing around at the local Masters.

Just thinking out-loud and wondering how much would it cost an athlete to recieve personal coaching/attention from a triathlon coach like the attention the average schmuck gets from a personal trainer? To me, the benefit is definitely there, it’s just a matter of $$.

10

Here’s how I like to break it down.

A: What do you think is an appropriate income for someone who is a triathlon coach? 60k/yr? 30k? 100K?
B: How many people do you think a coach can handle at any one time? 10? 20?
C: Divide A by 12 months. Divide that by B = what you think a coach is worth. At least you have a starting point.

Factors for A:
-Where do you live? Hiring a coach in San Diego or Boulder will be different than hiring one in Akron or Amarillo. Cost of living and expectation of coaching are going be very different.
-What do you expect? Many coaches will do the large majority of work over email. Some will try to meet with you once/twice a month and others may hold group or personal workouts.

Factors for B:
-Adjusting for A factors, figure that said coach will work 30-40 hours a week, determine how many people they can handle. An internet-only coach can turn out more workouts and handle more athletes than someone who is meeting with each athlete twice a month or coaching group workouts or coaching by phone or in person.

Apply these things to what you would do and you’ll come up with what you think a coach should be paid.

I used this when I was in the home improvement business. Everyone always wanted to find a better price for a plumber or carpenter and this usually made them come around to seeing what someone with the skill set they were looking for was really worth.
Joe the plumber in Boulder should take home at least 60k a year to live like a normal person. Two jobs a day by 5 days of work +1 for cancellations and marketing is: (60,000/52weeks)/11 = 104.~ take home a visit average. Add parts and gas and insurance and rent and you can see why a good plumber may be a few hundred a visit. And we haven’t even added in for vacation time and what not.

Let’s do two coaches as an example.
Mike Plumb and Mike Ricci.
Mike Plumb charges $85/month and lives in the San Diego area
Mike Ricci charges $450/month and lives in Boulder

Cost of living is a little higher for Plumb, but not that much. So let’s day 60-80k a year is what someone might shoot for as a baseline of living standard for each area in order to have a home and raise a family. That means that Plumb should be coaching 58-78 people and Ricci should be coaching 11-15… as a place to start in my mind.

For myself and what I feel is a proper wage for a coach, cost/month will fall somewhere in between Mike & Mike. Coaching 70 people a month does not sound like a lot of fun to me but only coaching 13 would bother me as well.

…or however you do it.

11

However, I do not know of any other coaches that charge that much, which would seem to support your ideal that personal trainers are charging more for their time than tri coache are.

Another one for you - Troy Jacobson has a few levels of coaching packages with the two most expensive being about $500 and $1000/month…

12

Funny. When I got into running years ago I had access to the best distance running coach in the country. Great credentials as he was the man who coached all the best distance runners in the country who held all the national records and many spots on national teams. Great guy to. Really helped me and a whole bunch of other people. He never charged a dime. Different age, I guess.

13

The highest priced personal trainer I know of: Jackie Warner of Beverly Hills Skysport Spa & Fitness and star of Bravo’s “Work Out.” She charges $300 per hour.

But Jackie’s a big time outlier. I would say most “high end” SoCal trainers (like the other trainers at her gym) are $75-$100/hour. $100 is reasonable for a West LA/Brentwood trainer.

The highest priced tri coach I know of: Joe Friel, who is $1500/month.

I would say that $300/hour and $1500 a month are equivalent, equally absurd, and equally overinflated in terms of value (or lack thereof).

I think $100/hr would equate to $500/month (using our highest priced individuals above), which is what Gordo used to (and may still) charge. However, I do not know of any other coaches that charge that much, which would seem to support your ideal that personal trainers are charging more for their time than tri coache are.

$75/hr would then work out to $375 month, which would be on the high end for tri coaching, but closer to what I know some elite (truly elite) coaches charge (less by a tad in some cases and more by a tad in others - $350-$400).

In the training world it depends what you are looking for. Paul Chek, who is one of the worlds’ authorities on corrective exercise and holistic health (according to him and his “Chekkies”) charges $1000 just for an assessment and then several hundreds/hour to train with him, if he has the room. Some of his high level guys who know the same stuff also charge $200-$500 an hour.

One of my mentors in Toronto is one of the highest level guys in Muscle Activation in North America in terms of knowledge and he charges only about $150 an hour.

Then there are the “celebrity” trainers who train based on hype and clientele - Jackie Warner, etc. They don’t do anything differently than the rest of the training world but manage to have the glitz and attract high end people so they can charge higher prices. Oprah’s trainer Bob Greene now has books, DVD’s and lots of swag, charges hundreds an hour and doesn’t have any certifications or credentials for training more than I do as far as I know. If you can get these clients then it is gravy.

However, some of these guys charge huge prices because they in theory are testing commitment. Tony Robbins talks about it in his courses where he will tell people it is $10,000 just for an initial appointment because he wants to know that they are truly committed to the process and are ready to invest a huge amount to work seriously and not waste his time.

When a client comes to me I expect at least a six month commitment and when I turn people down who just want a few sessions to “learn a program” they are usually surprised.

14

I like hearing about the “most valuable coaching you’ve ever received” - that speaks more to me than the angle that some here have taken in answering your query which seems to lean more to how much can a coach charge.

Clearly the American People don’t need a coach right there beside them for every hour that you train, that wouldn’t be necessary for your development and cost would be atrocious. Perhaps the best set up for the American People (or any athlete) would be to have a coach who writes a well thought out program for you to follow, one that addresses an appropriate progression for improving fitness one that’s goal based, etc. And then to have a few hours a month face to face with the coach. That one-on-one time would be for testing (field or lab-like), for technique improvement, for changes in training (specific execution of a new workout, new strength exercises, etc). That would be a really good scenario.

Now to put some prices on that situation: I would think $250 (+ or - a bit) would get you a coach who can build a really good training program that is built just for you based on both where you’re coming from and where you want to go. And then $85-$100 an hour for the one-on-one time. So then…oh, shit, I can’t remember the point of the OP - are we deciding what the American People can afford or were we discussing what a coach should/could charge. I don’t remember and I don’t want to approach it from that perspective any way so I’ll come back to the “ultimate for the American People” angle and that would be $250/mo + 3 one-on-one hours per month at ~$90/hour = $520/mo.

Ian

15

He was making money somewhere (unless he lived at the track under the bleachers?) and the advice he gave was probably in the hopes that you and others would sign up for regular coaching. This is not a bad thing and is a great way to advertise; IMO better than putting out flyers or internet ads as you’ve proven yourself knowledgeable and applicable. The best running coach where I live does the same thing. It’s not a case of a “different age”.

If someone is supposed to be the best at an endeavour (sports, business, art, music, coaching) it is a requirement that they make a living off it. This is because the more time spent doing something else, the less time and energy available for what they are supposed to be best at. The best in any activity tend to do that activity A LOT, and this includes coaching. Desert Dude had a great point about this a while back (man, he’s just getting ALL the love on this thread) that his personal N=1 is much less applicable to coaching than the N=2XX that he’s coached over his lifetime. That N=2XX takes time and energy, both of which passion for the activity will not make up for.

16

He was making money somewhere

He was a school teacher.

If someone is supposed to be the best at an endeavour (sports, business, art, music, coaching) it is a requirement that they make a living off it.

You must have missed my point about it being a different age - coaches made little or no money back then( 30+ years ago) they did it because they loved it and they were good at it.

And just to add to this, many of the first wave of triathletes in the 80’s and into the early 90’s were all self-coached. One of the first true Tri Coaches in my country I knew quite well. He gave me a ton of advice and guidance but no money ever changed hands.

As I said - different age.

17

It still happens.

When I managed a running store, I coached for free. I figured i had enough down time when it was slow to write workouts and I really liked doing it. It brought people in the door too, so we got something out of it from a business standpoint. Mostly I just liked helping people and being involved in the sport.

18

Yeah, imagine a place and time where some of the best coaches in the world would freely communicate with athletes doling out advice without money exchanging hands. Where would such a place exist??? :wink:

19

$150 an hour
$3000 dollars at sign up. fees are drawn off that deposit and then paid on a monthly basis for upcoming month.

Gross around 15k a month. closer to 27k on a good month. Not a bad gig if you enjoy doing it.

20

$500/month (using our highest priced individuals above), which is what Gordo used to (and may still) charge. However, I do not know of any other coaches that charge that much<<

Roch Frey $595
Paul Huddle $595
Greg Welch $495
Jimmy R. $595
Mac Brown $495