Question about bike industry

Triathlon Forum
1

I bought, (actually ordered, put down 1/2) a new road bike on January 20. I was told it would be in on Feb. 26. On March 4, they told me March 18, on March 18, they told me March 25, on March 28, they told me April 4. Supply problems with dura-ace is the culprit, which I do not question.

When I bought my tri-bike a couple of years ago, the same thing happened, it took five months to come in, because of “problems with the paint job”. Different manufacturer, different retailer, (one lbs, one internet direct from manufacturer.) Both times, all calls were promptly returned, which is appreciated, and info was very forthcoming.

What I don’t understand is why they don’t simply say"we don’t know", or something to that effect, or give me a worse case scenario. Every time they answer my question (and I have tried very hard not to bother them too much) they say (after apparently checking the manufacturer’s website) “It will ship on such and such a date”.

I’m a grown-up. I know I am buying a high-end product, and am paying dearly for the product. Just tell me when it will be here, or tell me you have no idea, its completely out of your control, or something to that effect.

Not a rant, just curious. In my work, if I repeatedly promised and did not deliver, I would be mortified.

anyone?

2

“Supply problems with…”

That’s why a lot of us buy second hand. :slight_smile:

3

It’s gut check time halfacre.

4

i had the same problem while i was waiting for my Rocket7 shoes. The website says that it takes 4-6 weeks until the custom shoes are made and shipped. So after I didn’t hear anything after 6 weeks I called and was told that they should be ready to ship and arrive within the next days. One week later I called again and was told that they will be shipped the next day. Another week later I called again and then I was told that the shoes were shipped the day before and will arrive the next week (and then they finally arrived).

I don’t have a problem when they tell me that it takes 2 or 3 more weeks - then I know and everything is fine. But always telling you something different is sort of strange - I just don’t get it.

Florian

5

Not a rant, just curious. In my work, if I repeatedly promised and did not deliver, I would be mortified.

anyone?

Technically, your customers would be mortified.

space

6

The thing that bunred me up about my Rocekt 7 experience is that the warranty for their carbon footbeds started from the date the order was received, not when they had shipped. They were going to make good on my insoles, but I have decided to fix them myself. I can’t be without them for six weeks (or longer)

If you have warranty issues, make certain that they happen before your order date and not your date of arrival.

7

We do tell customers that we cannot predict delivery dates. Largely, that is an unacceptable answer to them. We live in a society were the common belief is that if you press and press and press, you get what you want. So people press us and press us for delivery date information.

Some of the guys here crack under the interogation. They will make the mistake of naming a time line with dangerous statements like, “We think it may be here in three weeks…”

Now, realistically, that statement contains two huge disclaimers: “think” (i.e., as in, do not know) and “may” as in, may also not.

But it never fails, you slip up like that and you get a call in two weeks where the customer says, and I can;t tell you how often this happens, “But Al *promised *me it would be here in three weeks… I have a race!”

Well, we all have races, we are all waiting for bikes. And every year we are honest with people and warn them, and every year they ignore us or just go where they hear what they want. Some guy across town can be telling them “I can have that in three weeks.” He doesn’t know that, he is just saying what they want to hear to make the sale. We don’t do that. It’s a bad way to go.

8

That’s why if the LBS doesn’t have what I want in stock, I go somewhere else. It shouldn’t be difficult to give my money to some store in exchange for some bike-related object. I don’t feel much pity for someone that gets frustrated after going into a purchase knowing that what they’re buying doesn’t exist yet, and knowing that it’s speculative to predict a date when it will exist. Why not just shop around until you find the damn thing in-stock somewhere?

I know this probably is not the LBS’s fault, but it’s not the customer’s fault either. If we were talking a few dollars, then no big deal. But generally, we’re talking hundreds or thousands of dollars.

The problem is not a new one and I don’t get the feeling it’s going away. Other industries conquered the supply chain beast long ago. Maybe manufacturers could spend a bit of their carbon fiber R&D budget on figuring out how to simply get product to their customers on-time.

9

Well, one thing to keep in mind, the really good stuff that is priced reasonably is gone before it arrives at the bike shop. We rarely have hot bikes in stock for open sale. They are all sold before they arrive.

Bottom line: Buy early and be patient.

10

Maybe becuase the industry has adopted Old World practises. For example, a client of mine sells and installs flooring. In the zip code where I work, many people get marble floors installed. He was told one shipping date by a company in the old world (I am not going to piss off any ethnicities here), and when to expect it. When the expected arrival date had passed, he had called (at great expense may I add) and asked about it, then he was told that it had left that day. When the new arrival date had passed, he had called again and was told the boat was still in the dock!!!

I have had this happen time and again, even when having a bike built in a shop(being told one day, then another day had passed even before it was finished). Yes, I have others build my bikes when I lack a good headset cup press, taps for cleaning paint out of threaded areas, facing the BB and the like. I don’t work in a bicycle shop anymore…

Anyway, the only way to combat this is to only accept putting down smaller non-refundable deposits, and (unfortunately) putting pressure on in the right places. If that means putting pressure on the bike shop. so be it. If they feel the pressure, then maybe they will pressure the manufacturers.

11

Isn’t that the same story? You must pay for something before it even exists and then depend on delivery projections. Furthermore, if the item is something new then you’ve probably never even seen it to begin with so you’re also buying blind. As a customer, I think that sucks.

This is not an LBS problem. It’s an industry problem. Guys like you will continue to be hurt, and customers will continue to be frustrated, until: 1) The customer decides enough is enough and they stop supporting their LBS and they buy the items faster and cheaper online, or 2) The industry starts doing business like adults.

I’d love to see #2 happen, as I love my LBS. But I also love getting something when I need it and at a reasonable price. It’s seldom the case that both of these things occur in the same transaction.

12

I find it interesting that there are always these delays. It cant simply be the result of new designs because surely they dont go in to production without DFMA, they can not be sorting through teething problems in production and surely there is enough historical data to suggest minimum quantities of each size that are required year on year. I cant believe that there is no forecasting? so if there is forecasting why do you wait months for products to hit the stores? I do wonder in the delivery / manufacture of framesets whether it is a result of batch manufacturing?

When manufacturers in the automotive industry can have product lines side in some instances minutes (seat manufacturers, a classic) and FMCG manufacturers can change entire production schedules at moments notice based on weather forecasts I find it difficult to accept that the situation cant be improved in the bike industry.

Its interesting that this level of performance would not be accepted by air travellers if planes were not available due to maintenance or Toyota told you it was a three month wait for your car…

Can anyone explain why the delays occur in the manufacturing process?

13

Others have implicated the supply chain challenges and I would have to say that, is a big problem. Parts and frames are sourced from different manufactureres, sub-manufacturers and suppliers all over the globe now. One small screw-up along the way, in a factory thousands of miles away in another country that you have no contact with and things can get very delayed.

The apparel business is a bit more streamlined, but still much of the product is now made off-shore and there can be significant challenges. When I worked at Sugoi a few years ago, we tried something a bit different - we gauranteed delivery by date X, and we ensured that all orders were deliverd in full, by date X. Now, at the time, all of the Sugoi gear was made in the factory in Vancouver. Getting the exact status on a retailer’s order, was as simple as walking up to the production floor and talking to the production manager, and he would tell me to the hour, when the order would be ready. When we started this program MANY retailers, both bike and run complained that the Sugoi gear was too expensive - and we were more expensive than our competition, but not hugely so. However, our gear was in the stores, and selling, not undelivered, not endlessly back ordered. Retailers, ummmd and awwed about the pricing for a while, but then finally got the message that it’s better to have the gear in the stores selling, than haggling over $10 on the price of a cycling short, or whatever, than waiting forever, for the shorts to show up.

The supply chain in many businesses now is incredibly complex. Part, of the reason for this, is that consumers demand lower and lower prices on many/all consumer products. There is a total assumption( obsesssion?) that if I buy something for $100 this year, that it will only pay $90 next year or the next time that I need to buy/replace that consumer product, AND that it will be better! Not saying this is right or wrong, just that it puts tremendous pressure on the whole supply chain, and that something has to give at some point.

Fleck

14

I always prefer to support my LBS when making purchases from a new ride to a pair of socks. However, this support is consistently tested in the amount of time you have to wait to get what you want. The reality is you can go online or call another shop and find the inventory and get your item when you want it. If you want to support your LBS patients is mandatory. I choose to support my LBS 90% of the time but it is getting harder.

15

No. They cannot be explained. There are as many different reasons as there are delays. The bicycle industry cannot be compared to automotive, airline and other commodity industries. It is unique and different.

It makes my stomach turn when someone says, “Well, in my industry…”

I just want to say, “We’re not in your industry. This is the adult toy industry. There is no money in and it runs on discretionary income. People don’t *need *bikes.”

The bike industry is unique. It’s a leisure industry run largely by hobbyists.

16

<<"We’re not in your industry. This is the adult toy industry. >>

I see you’ve expanded the product mix at Bikesport;-)

Brett

17

No offence Tom but thats simply not true. Do you have any idea how many businesses I’ve been in or worked with or for where the immediate response of every one is “We’re different because…”, “Those things cant be applied here because…” and “You dont understand our business because…”

There are no unique reasons that are exclusive to a single industry. None, not one that I can think of. Supply chain issues, the longest supply chain I can think of is Steel or AL from ore to mill to extrusions and thats just getting raw materials in to a plant to do something with.

Tobacco, I was astonished when I found out that they have years of leaf located in storage around the world.

Automotive, outsourcing felt and interiors to Eastern Europe for the interiors of Beamers and Saabs etc.

If you really believe that the bike industry is unique I suggest you read The Machine that Changed the World by Womac and Jones, then try Lean Thinking, both will show you the variety of industries across which the same basic rules and techniques can be applied. The same tools and techniques have been applied in Automotive, Airline, Engineering, Healthcare and Electronic and Technology based manufacturing and service companies. From Motorola to Airbus to Boeing to Toyota who pioneered it.

Every business I have ever been in has told me that they are unique and every single one of them has only ever been able to demonstrate waste that falls in to one of seven categories:

Transport, Inventory, Motion, Waiting, Over Production, Over Processing and Defects

I dont think Giant would consider themselves hobbyists and whilst I suppose Gerard might consider himself a hobbyist I’d suggest he’s running a very serious business and whilst he might be passionate about bikes it cant be run at a loss. I suppose the real issue is that if I were a manufacturer and knew that there were tools out there that could improve my business at no, or minimal, cost why would I not do it? If the most basic tools were applied religiously, such as workplace organisation and prehaps running set up reduction exercises which cost nothing but time with a video camera, why would I not try it? The evidence that these things work is overwhelming I just am amazed that these things are not applied in the bike industry.

As to the discretionary income argument thats a slightly ridiculous argument, no one NEEDS a Aston Martin DB9, a Ferrari but somehow these companies see value in investing in their processes. I would also think that owners of cars like these might not think of them as commodities.

I would guess that the real reason companies dont look at these things (if they are not) is that there is no pressure to. People accept that it takes months to get a bike and thats fine, so there is not the pressure to change that these other businesses face. I’d bet if penalties were scaled against deliveries things would change but that will never be the case and the customer can only vote with their wallet and so long as owning a “Cervelo”, “Litespeed” or whatever has a particular cache associated with it, people will accept that with owning one comes the wait to get it.

19

Of course, we’re not talking about the “bike” industry here…but just one tiny part of it. Walmart/Canadian Tire/etc sell more bikes in one day then…well, I have no idea, but I’m willing to bet that the large majority of “bikes” are sold through these mass merchants. And yet they don’t seem to have problems with stock/inventory/shipping. Could you imagine someone going to Wallmart in early spring to buy their kid a bike and being told “uhhhh, we don’t have any bikes in stock, and we don’t know when we will.”

I use to work in a store that sold skis and bikes (was primarily a ski store). You know what they say in the ski “industry”? Thank god for the bike “industry”! While the ski side certainly had it’s share of…challenges (and would fit most of the criteria the Tom ascribes to the bike industry), it was a model of efficancy compared to dealing with the bike industry.

I suspect that if we want our bikes delivered as efficiently as possible, that most of the brands would have to consolidate so that there were just seven or eight makers the size of Giant/Trek (or even bigger). But is that what we really want?

20

  1. I agree, with all due respect to Tom, I don’t think that the bike business is that unique. The issue, that I pointed out in a previous post, is the complexity of the supply chain these days, in almost ever industry.

  2. Let’s be clear, the people buying $3,000+ bikes represent a very small portion of the bike business as a whole, and I think that these people are not unlike, the people you mentioned buying a high-end sports car, many of them are prepared to wait. There will be the odd character that will, freak-out at the delays, but I think that most want, as you said the cache of owning that marquee model or brand.

  3. My counter argument to all this is about price, the vast majority of consumers, including your rank and file bike consumer is absolutly driven by price - even if it’s $20 on a $2000 bike, as absurd as that sounds. They’ll completely drop the negociations and the sales process, to go get that bike for $20 less, where ever that may be. There is tremendous pressure in ALL industries to come up with BETTER stuff for LESS money. What I wonder, is where this will all end? My benchmark is the humble drip coffee maker. 20 years ago a good one cost $75. 10 Years ago the price was down to $50. Several years ago it was down to $19.99. What will it be 10 years from now? $9.99? Less? More?

Fleck

21

Fleck,

I have no idea what sort of people work within the industry, I suppose like any other it encompasses the broad range of people from those who are obsessed with bikes and enthusiasts to those that like it, but at the end of the day it is just a check. I suspect that the driving force behind companies like Cervelo and when Slowman owned it, QR, was their passion for bikes, I’d guess they started it because they simply dig bikes and had an engineering bent and figured they could do something better than anything else that was out there.

The issue that I have is that people as a rule find it acceptable to wait 3 months for product and thats simply the way it is and that as Tom pointed out, there is not much thats applicable to them thats been learnt in other industries as they are “different”.

The supply chain in the bike business is certainly not that complex when compared to manufacturing cars, planes or even Dyson Vacum Cleaners (anyone know why he off shored it?) and look at how successful Felt are at exploiting it and giving value for money.

The only thing that is somewhat unique about the bike industry is that one of the suppliers to it is in most instances larger than the companies to which it supplies (Shimano) but that is really no different than putting BMW electronics in a Landrover or Toyota or Ford supplying another manufacturer with an engine. So it really is not that unique.

Comparisons with other developed businesses are valid, high end cars, aerospace, all are applicable and money is not a factor that should be considered an obstacle to good basic manufacturing practices as it costs very little to nothing at all and saves volumes in the long run.

As to the price for a good coffee maker, it does not go down, you just get more for your money, so you would still spend $75, it would just make Cappucino’s as well.