Qualifying for Hawaii

I have a friend who is a weight lifter and lifting/rowing coach. He did his first IM last year in 13:30 on 5 months training of about 8-10 hours per week. He is doing IM FL this year. He wants to qualify for Hawaii. He wants to train the 3 sports about 10-12 hours per week. He’s in his 40’s. He does a lot of lifting and rowing at the highest levels. He thinks triathletes all over train.

I don’t think this plan will work. He has no extensive endurance base, except rowing, to build on, plus he has no serious running/biking speed (7 m/m 10k pace; 17 m/h IM bike pace last year). I fear he doesn’t fully comprehend how deep and talented that age group is and how long those guys have been building to get there. He IS a very talented athlete with the strongest motivation and determination I’ve seen.

I’ve suggested for such high goals, and given his lack of base in the muscle specific areas of biking and running, he has a remote chance of qualifying if he dedicates 8-20 hours per week to training. This is the only way I see for him to make the speed gains necessary to qualify for Hawaii by early November.

Is his goal realistic given his unwillingness to train more than 12 hours per week? (As an added wrinkle, I should add that he is a pretty good swimmer. 1 hour for the IM last year, so he could skip a lot of swim training and still swim an hour. Also, he does high quality workouts, i.e., no faking it.)

Has anyone qualified for Hawaii with such a small base and relatively short weekly training schedule?

-Robert

If I were you, I’d prepare myself for saying “Aloha” to the guy.

This guy, with all of the experience, is going to have the strength…something most triathletes spend YEARS trying to acquire, and now all he has to do is get a little more time in the saddle and not blow it on the run. Think about it, IMFL is flat, and it favors a strong athlete (i.e.- Spencer Smith), so he can use his strength with ease.

One other thing. We had a guy on my team who did nothing but row until he got into tri’s. third or second race was IMUSA in 2001. Dude did a 10:2something, and missed IQ by 4 minutes- Came back the next year and did a sub-10 at IMUSA. Got the slot with time to spare in the 25-29 AG. Point is, rowers are strong athletes, and shouldn’t be judged by anything more than lack of sport-specific experience.

My bet is your friend will qualify. This sport was founded on “just doin’ it”, and letting the day come and doing one’s best. Anything can happen on race day…including low volume training snatching up Hawaii slots.

Hope your friend keeps his motivation up,

Rob

The thing about rowing as an endurance sport: most of the workouts are approx. 2hrs long, sitting on or above lactic threshold the entire time. A good rowing background certainly gives you an excellent, though not a sport-specific endurance base. In my world, an average 2hr rowing workout=a hard 3-4hr bike=tempo 2-2.5hr run.

12hrs per week should be doable with his background, I think. He’s used to working on intensity, from rowing and lifting. So I assume he’s got a strong pump, oxygen utilization, lactate clearance etc. All your friend need do, is put in lots of sport-specific (running and biking) miles, to gain technique and efficiency at the neuromuscular level. Thus, since he wouldnt need to spend a lot of weekly hours on basic cardio fitness he can spend most of those 12hrs on long SS work. As he puts in the miles, gets the neuromuscular control for running/biking, he’ll get speedier. If he’s a rower, he’ll be pushing the pace even on the longstuff anyway.

I sure wish him all the luck in qualifying! Triathlon needs more rowers!

Ziva (biased :))

Ziva and Rob: I have the highest respect for rowers. One caveat regarding this fellow though, he is a sprinter. He doesn’t like the longer races, though he does some of them. His typical rowing workout is something like 10 x 500 meters, holding about 1:28. I believe he does 3000 on 1:35. Anyway, I’m not sure how much of that rowing specificity will translate into running and biking improvement. And then there is the small matter of age. :slight_smile: Let’s face it, a guy in his 20’s is going to improve and recover much faster than a guy who is 40. You guys are really on about the quality of his workouts, though. I’m amazed at how hard he is able to work. His cardio and muscular strength is enormous. Maybe you’re right. That would be very exciting to see him qualify.

-Robert

I think his run split might be the big factor. How big a guy is he? Usually rowers/lifters have a pretty big upper body and that can be a load 15-16 miles into an IM marathon…even on a flat course like FL. Everybody always says Kona comes down to the run for the men, and I think it might be the same way for your friend’s attempt to qualify. Good luck to him though…it is the greatest race in the sport.

Well, this guy is really something of a paradox. He’s pretty short and now is down to 165. He’s hoping to get down to 155. (He was 225 when he was a serious lifter; 180 when he was rowing heavy.) If a negative number for body fat were possible, he’d be the one to have it.

But, I agree with you. The run is his serious weakness. When I was his age I was running a minute a mile faster for 10K, and as we all know, 37 minute 10K times are quite mundane for 40 year olds. :slight_smile: He ran about 5:45 at his only IM last year. He would have to run under 3:30 most likely to qualify for Hawaii. I’ve focused most of my criticism on his lack of long runs in his program. I suspect endurance running is a serious limiter for him. Shouldn’t he be doing at least one very long run each week given his lack of running base? Plus about another 15-20 miles of running seems reasonable to me. He did almost nothing but 10 mile runs last year! Sheezh…

This should prove interesting at any rate. I’ll let you guys know how he does. I’ve often wondered if these high training volumes are necessary to get to the top.

-Robert

hmmm…he’s a 10x500m guy. Sick. Maybe that changes things a bit…

I recommend them long SS runs. Lots of long SS.

Go anonymous rower friend of Robert!

Z

an hour swim, 5.30 bike and a 3.30 marathon would put him in the ball park.

An hour swim is not fast, just steady, and a 3.30 run for a 42 minute 10k is relatively slow, it’s a minute a mile slower, he does not need speed work but strength work to accomplish that.

The bike would be the biggest concern but if he is as strong as you say and can get the bike down it is do-able…because the IM’s about strength not speed

and they generally have excellent aerobic base along with very powerful quads.

Lots of people have come into this sport and done well the first time, although it is getting harder and harder as the best people now at every age group are VERY good.

The main thing about an IM and doing well is pacing. Until you have done one you don’t know. So, while it is possible this guy may be capable of qualifying, I give him low odds of doing so as he can’t possibly know how to pace (for best time) for that kind of race until he has done one, or two, or 10. There is something to be said for experience. That being said, if he doesn’t try he will surely fail.

Frank

Ziva and Andrew: Yes, Ziva, I agree. Andrew, I know he died on the run last year. The last 10 miles were sheer torture and he looked like warmed over carrion at the end! But, he has gotten slightly faster on the run and quite a bit faster on the bike. He’s holding 20 mph for flat 60 mile TTs right now and following up with 10 mile runs at an 8 min per mile pace. So, how quickly can he improve to the times you mention? I think 5:30 on the bike is very doable because he is agreeable to training long on the bike. We plan on some 120 mile bike rides together starting next month. He’s sticking with 10 miles as his long run, though. (I just spoke with him about an hour ago. He’s worried that because he’s squatted 800 pounds and has some muscle changes ordinary mortals don’t deal with, he might not survive a lot of hard, long runs.)

Anwyay, all of this points up, to my mind, how important it can be to have a competent triathlon coach. I’ve suggested he get one, but he’s a coach… :),

-Robert

Frank: He can’t cross his legs. :slight_smile: I’m sure you’ve seen the pictures of body builders with 30 inch quads; well, he’s not THERE anymore, but he’s got to have quads and vastus medialus the size of a small state. :slight_smile: He squats 500 lbs 15 times NOW at 165 lbs. Sheezh…my measley 200 lb squats are probably better than most guys my age but still puny lifts.

I don’t know how he runs so fast with those legs.

-Robert

Speaking of rowers, here’s why I have mucho respect for rowers. When I was about 42 I did a triathlon as part of a relay. It was ROW, bike, run. I did the bike leg and we actually ended up winning the open section principally because our rower had been a world class rower. (He showed up with an $8000 rowing shell!)

But, during the bike leg, which I was soon leading, I had to pass a guy doing the race solo. It turned out he was an Olympic rower just out for a Sunday workout. He had blown everyone away in the row portion to say the least, so I was about 3 minutes behind him on the bike. When I caught him. He was riding your classic Schwinn balloon tire bike with a FLAT front tire. As I started to pass him, he sped up. He did not want to be passed. I swear to God the guy had quads the size of Kansas and he was about 6’3" tall and must have weighed 230-240. He was a big mutha’! Anyway, we came to a patch of non-road, where it was nothing but dirt path. Just a short distance. Here he had a slight traction advantage and he started to pull away. You should have seen the look on his face. He was going to kill himself before he let some skinny biker in funny looking clothing beat him! I was really impressed with the guy’s spirit and told him so after the race. Of course, with a flat tire he was soon toast after we got on the road again and I passed him. He later told me that once I passed him he was so pissed he almost quit the race, but figured he’d win because he had such a huge lead over the other solo rowers who were mostly rowing Alden Trainers and such. Anyway, rowers are a special breed for sure. They have a work ethic that anyone could admire. The Willie McCool story Mike Plumb told reminded me of him. :),

Just knowing folks like that makes being alive exciting!

-Robert

I rowed lightweight crew (had to weigh less than 160 at weigh-in) and was 6’ 2+". However, I never knew an oarsman who could find pants off the shelf where the waist AND thighs both fit. Luckily, at the Naval Academy our uniforms were all tailored and we could get them altered anytime we needed them.

you need to be running sub-35 min to think about running sub-3:30 i and IM marathon split. It’s not all about strength. He could be the strongest slow guy in the world.

I disagree regarding “you need to be running sub-35 min to think about running sub-3:30 i and IM marathon split.”

I ran 3:24 at IMC last year and my best 10K has been 36:45. It is about endurance, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be about speed.

I don’t however believe this fellow can go from a 5+ marathon to 3:30.

I don’t think his 10 mile runs are enough. My longest run in IM training last year was 33km. I think this is long enough but I think you want to get close to this level.

35 or 36:45 whatever. the point is a 42 min 10k runner won’t run under 3:30

“…the point is a 42 min 10k runner won’t run under 3:30…”

Huh? I’ve yet to run under 42 minutes in a 10K and my fastest standalone marathon to date is 3:22. This summer I plan to go under 3:10 and I bet I don’t go under 40min in a 10K. (however I would like to chnage that)

Oh yeah I rowed on the collegiate level for 5 years, have a long cycling history, and yes my legs are the size of Texas!

Dan

One suggestion to think of for longer runs is going on eliptical trainers. You still need to have some sort of running base of actual pounding running, but for the longer training runs (15+ miles) I’ve heard that it can really lessen the impact on knees/hips etc.

If you use an eliptical or cross trainer in combination with regular running workouts you should be able to get your body used to the longer exertion period without impacting the joints as much. Another idea is to do running in the pool or water for a longer workout since again there is much less impact on the joints but your body is still practicing the exertion and the movements.

I actually am only training for my first marathon and first triathlons (all sprint or oly) this summer so I don’t have experience, but I like to listen and read and the above suggestions seem to have worked for others before. Best of luck on the quest for qualifying - someday I hope to get there but I’m an even slower runner/biker/swimmer in a tougher age-group (age 25) so it will take a while.

Dan: Yes, I suspect your strength is an asset for those long runs. I am faster the shorter the race, i.e. I slow down a lot in longer races. My buddy is probably more like you. He’s your basic OX! :slight_smile: At 43 I ran a 3:32 marathon, but was running between 37-40 minutes for 10K. I just can’t hold pace for long…but I’ve been working hard on that. This should prove to be interesting. All you really muscular guys might have a prayer after all! :slight_smile:

Thanks for all the responses. I’m stoked for my friend! He might make it!!!

-Robert

you may be able to run 3:22, but we’re talking about an IM split, not a stand alone marathon.