Ex-Louisiana deacon whose son was sexually abused by a predator priest is excommunicated from church. Church bishop issues the order after deacon had resigned from his post, but the actual predator priest was not censured.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/22/louisiana-deacon-excommunicated-son-sexual-abuse
Seems beyond Orwellian.
You’re puzzled?
It doesn’t matter if the humans in church say they have divine authority; the humans in positions of power in churches are clearly not divinely-authorized. Those humans in churches routinely abuse their power. In fact, churches are a useful tool for anyone looking for ways to abuse others. Churches are like the internet. They are not a safe space. If you go to church, you need to guard against abuse by religious people at the personal level, as well as more broadly in society.
Humans abuse each other through religion. Think of the Catholic Crusades that caused the death of 1.7 million people. Hitler and the Christian Nazis accounted for, conservatively, 10 million deaths during WWII. Think of the 100 million indigenous peoples’ deaths during the last five centuries caused by Europeans and their racism, religions, wars and repression. Think of current religion-caused deaths: Think of the attack yesterday by the Islamic State. In the present Gaza conflict, over 32,000 Palestinian deaths attributable to Israel and 3,000 Israeli deaths attributable to Hamas.
You’re totally right, the reality ain’t good, but churches sure do claim to be wonderful.
Actually, churches do wonderful work, too. I just don’t think anyone should put total faith in a church.
I was thinking about John Dean and that book Authoritarian Nightmare that we read together in 2020. John Dean made a significant turn-around in his life. I’d like to know more about that.
Actually, churches do wonderful work, too. I just don’t think anyone should put total faith in a church.
Sure, I follow.
But, given that sometimes churches try to do a few good things, why would any church ever penalize a crime victim and yet reward a predator? (per the article in the OP)
That is the part I just don’t get.
Religions offer turn arounds and redemption to people. That’s hope. People need opportunities to make turn arounds.
People in authority in a church, anyone in leadership actually, need to be good at selling hope. “In exchange for loyalty, money, time, effort, trust, faith, we offer you XXX.â€
Why does one partner in church (or business or romantic relationships) facilitate the abuse by another partner? What hope does the abusive partner offer to the facilitating partner?
Religions offer turn arounds and redemption to people. That’s hope. People need opportunities to make turn arounds.
People in authority in a church, anyone in leadership actually, need to be good at selling hope. “In exchange for loyalty, money, time, effort, trust, faith, we offer you XXX.â€
Why does one partner in church (or business or romantic relationships) facilitate the abuse by another partner? What hope does the abusive partner offer to the facilitating partner?
Good questions, not sure that I know.
Then, I read stuff like this:
https://apnews.com/article/youtube-child-abuse-ruby-franke-jodi-hildebrandt-b237eb83bb592bbc3b1a3c3757b1263d
Actually, churches do wonderful work, too. I just don’t think anyone should put total faith in a church.
Sure, I follow.
But, given that sometimes churches try to do a few good things, why would any church ever penalize a crime victim and yet reward a predator? (per the article in the OP)
That is the part I just don’t get.
Right, it amazes me, how under the cover religion or churches people do horrible things, and then those who follow, just reply but they do good work to.
It should not be a well they did x bad and y good, lets just focus on the good. Especially when it comes to religions, that as you say are there to offer, hope and make people / the world a better place.
This is not like a remote one off occurrence, We can go all the way back to the crusades if you want. We have supposedly gotten better as a society, but then when the light gets shined on what these churches do, its like we are suppose to ignore it cause, well they do good.
People Like the Bakers, and now Trump have learned how to take that but they do good, and manipulate so many people for their own benefit it’s all just incredible to me, that people still follow them. As a reformed catholic with many catholic family and friends its much fun when the topic comes up and any attempt is made to “bring me to the fold” I look at them, and just bring up the pedophile priests and the churches continuing coverup lack of prosecution and ex-communication. I get the blank look, cause I just brought up the holy of holy not allowed discussions, They have no reply, the room goes quiet and the conversation moves off, me not following their religion, and I let it go cause I know they have no reply.
So to the OP no this is not puzzling behavior, its a feature of “Churches” it also makes me wonder, why this GOD thing, would continue to allow his name to be used to hide this behavior? I mean really, their are still catholic priests doing mass every sunday, who have (and maybe still are) molesting children and this GOD just shrugs and thinks, well their damned when they die? I mean after 1 they were damned, whats the point in allowing it to continue? who does that serve? who does that help? what message does that send?
And people wonder why I call myself an atheist or agnostic, (the agnostic part is cause i don’t know or care, who / what started everything, I am willing to say sure it could have been some hiring being, we could be snot blown out its nose, atheist when it comes to a god / judge / overlord.)
So the church did church things? Shocker!!
One thing that I have learned from churches and their loudest supporters, the problem isn’t the child abuse or the abusers, the problem is people talking about it.
Actually, churches do wonderful work, too. I just don’t think anyone should put total faith in a church.
Sure, I follow.
But, given that sometimes churches try to do a few good things, why would any church ever penalize a crime victim and yet reward a predator? (per the article in the OP)
That is the part I just don’t get.
From what I read it was one individual in the church who decided on handed out this punishment. Unfortunately not everyone in the Catholic Church is great. But not everyone is horrible. Kinda like any large group of people (police, teachers, republicans, Americans, etc). But unfortunately whenever a few individuals do something bad the group as a whole will often be blamed
Actually, churches do wonderful work, too. I just don’t think anyone should put total faith in a church.
Sure, I follow.
But, given that sometimes churches try to do a few good things, why would any church ever penalize a crime victim and yet reward a predator? (per the article in the OP)
That is the part I just don’t get.
From what I read it was one individual in the church who decided on handed out this punishment. Unfortunately not everyone in the Catholic Church is great. But not everyone is horrible. Kinda like any large group of people (police, teachers, republicans, Americans, etc). But unfortunately whenever a few individuals do something bad the group as a whole will often be blamed
Totally reasonable answer.
But, in the case of the people in the OP article (and other similar cases in the church), why don’t the good people/higher level staff in the church get involved in these cases and right these terrible and puzzling wrongs? (in this case, penalizing a victim’s parent and rewarding an evil child predator)
Ex-Louisiana deacon whose son was sexually abused by a predator priest is excommunicated from church. Church bishop issues the order after deacon had resigned from his post, but the actual predator priest was not censured.
https://www.theguardian.com/...ted-son-sexual-abuse
Seems beyond Orwellian.
Larry Nassar was able to abuse something like 100 girls in some cases with their moms in the room. Abuse went on in Jerry Sandusky’s program for years despite alarms bells should have been going off. Most organizations circle the wagons when this happens. Why do these things surprise you?
If you were scientific about this you would look it up and find that abuse occurs in settings where structures exist which allow it. Places where people have a lot to risk if they report it, or parents have a lot invested in “the program”. Abusers will find settings where they have access to vulnerable kids.
The Catholic church seems like the worst place because much attention has been focused on it as of late. But the Catholic church had millions of children in institutional settings such as residential schools etc so it makes sense there were a lot of cases. They also kept extensive records unlike some other groups.
Every study I have looked up seems to show it is the type of setting not whether it is religious or secular. If one thinks their child will be safe because they are in a religious or non religious setting you would be wrong. Larry Nassar had access because many parents wanted their daughters to succeed at the highest level of gymnastics. And the girls wanted to please their parents and coaches not be labelled a troublemaker. He was associated with the top coaches who had much to lose as well.
Yes, I understand what you are saying.
But, in the case of the people in the OP article (and other similar cases in the church), why don’t the good people/higher level staff in the church get involved in these cases and right these terrible and puzzling wrongs? (in this case, penalizing a victim’s parent and rewarding an evil child predator)
Ex-Louisiana deacon whose son was sexually abused by a predator priest is excommunicated from church. Church bishop issues the order after deacon had resigned from his post, but the actual predator priest was not censured.
https://www.theguardian.com/...ted-son-sexual-abuse
Seems beyond Orwellian.
Larry Nassar was able to abuse something like 100 girls in some cases with their moms in the room. Abuse went on in Jerry Sandusky’s program for years despite alarms bells should have been going off. Most organizations circle the wagons when this happens. Why do these things surprise you?
If you were scientific about this you would look it up and find that abuse occurs in settings where structures exist which allow it. Places where people have a lot to risk if they report it, or parents have a lot invested in “the program”. Abusers will find settings where they have access to vulnerable kids.
The Catholic church seems like the worst place because much attention has been focused on it as of late. But the Catholic church had millions of children in institutional settings such as residential schools etc so it makes sense there were a lot of cases. They also kept extensive records unlike some other groups.
Every study I have looked up seems to show it is the type of setting not whether it is religious or secular. If one thinks their child will be safe because they are in a religious or non religious setting you would be wrong. Larry Nassar had access because many parents wanted their daughters to succeed at the highest level of gymnastics. And the girls wanted to please their parents and coaches not be labelled a troublemaker. He was associated with the top coaches who had much to lose as well.
I brought up John Dean’s book earlier in this thread because I think certain people are more susceptible to the settings with frameworks which allow abuse to exist.
People who like authoritarian style framework (strict hierarchy, strict obedience/submission, clearly defined roles for people, etc) are more vulnerable. The people in power can act with impunity.
John Dean is also interesting because he had a significant turn around in his life. He hit rock bottom. You know how the AA model requires a person to submit to a higher power in order to turn things around? John Dean would reject that, I think. I suspect his higher power was his own conscience, not a divine authority.
ETA: with respect to sports, business relationships, and romantic relationships, when one person has sole authority— that is a setting that allows for abuse.
Actually, churches do wonderful work, too. I just don’t think anyone should put total faith in a church.
Sure, I follow.
But, given that sometimes churches try to do a few good things, why would any church ever penalize a crime victim and yet reward a predator? (per the article in the OP)
That is the part I just don’t get.
From what I read it was one individual in the church who decided on handed out this punishment. Unfortunately not everyone in the Catholic Church is great. But not everyone is horrible. Kinda like any large group of people (police, teachers, republicans, Americans, etc). But unfortunately whenever a few individuals do something bad the group as a whole will often be blamed
I grew up in church and was a faithful Christian for 40 years and know a lot of wonderful people from church. But I compare this situation to what George W Bush said after the 9/11 attack. “I will make no distinction between the terrorists and those who harbor them.” The church leaders and members who overlooked, protected and hid the molestation are just as responsible as the criminal priests who committed the acts.
IME, in many instances church leadership wants to keep it in house to protect the institution. They view the institution as more valuable and worth protecting than the individual who was victimized. A church is no different in that respect than a univeristy, sports team, etc. And to believers, they may view the importance of the institution as worth the sacrifice of the victim.
I can see that.
But, clearly, this strategy has totally failed. As the church cover ups have become the story and the damage to the institution has far, far exceeded the damage cause by predator priests, if the problem was faced and nipped in the bud in the beginning.
You ever see this flick? (kind of a twisted primer on how to effectively avoid law enforcement)
It is a hell of a ride.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcRzvCQWN6c
https://youtu.be/...QWN6c?feature=shared
If you were scientific about this you would look it up and find that abuse occurs in settings where structures exist which allow it. Places where people have a lot to risk if they report it, or parents have a lot invested in “the program”. Abusers will find settings where they have access to vulnerable kids.
The Catholic church seems like the worst place because much attention has been focused on it as of late. But the Catholic church had millions of children in institutional settings such as residential schools etc so it makes sense there were a lot of cases. They also kept extensive records unlike some other groups.
Every study I have looked up seems to show it is the type of setting not whether it is religious or secular.
This is FALSE. It is part of the PR narrative that the Catholic Church has been pushing internationally for some years now, since the long-standing strategy of intimidation of victims and cover-ups has failed, since the subsequent strategy of claiming “one bad apple” has failed. They now seek to claim that it is not a Catholic Church problem, it is just an “institutional” problem for all institutions.
That falsehood has been thoroughly debunked, including by the world’s most exhaustive inquiry into the matter, and by many subsequent studies. If you were scientific about this you would acknowledge this fact.
I have written about this several times on this forum, including here and here and here. I’m willing to continue to do so, because I believe that the promulgation of the Catholic Church’s lies about the extent of this issue is entirely part of the cause of the issue itself. There will be no end to the problem until the truth gets a little more oxygen.
Here’s part of what I wrote previously:
Australia has had the world’s most comprehensive inquiry into institutional responses to sexual abuse. The broadest possible powers of inquiry, 6 independent commissioners, many millions of dollars, thousands of written submissions, thousands of witnesses in person and 7000 in camera, 3,489 separate institutions investigated.
The background and the outcome are both instructive.
The background is that as accusations and convictions against the catholic church mounted, there were a couple of state based inquiries into the catholic church and the results were damning. There was growing pressure for a national inquiry.
The catholic church countered with the argument that they were being unfairly targeted, that it wasn’t a church problem, it was an “institutional” problem. They won that argument; the terms of reference were massively widened. Every “institution” in the country was subject to scrutiny.
The outcome was that, yes, sexual abuse and bad responses to it were uncovered in schools, youth clubs, medical care providers and multiple other institutions. However: more than 58% of the abuse allegations were in religious institutions, and of those more than 61% were in catholic institutions. In the worst of the catholic institutions, more than 40% of the ‘brothers’ engaged in sexual abuse and virtually 100% were aware of its existence (and engaged in the cover up).
So, yes, it can happen in any institution, but it is massively more prone to occur in religious institutions generally and in catholic institutions in particular. It is really important that the worst offenders not be allowed to whitewash their culpability by pretending that they are no different than others. Many people might commit murder under some circumstances. That does not mean that the world’s worst serial killers are no different from other folks.
I’m genuinely interested to read “every study that you have looked up”, because every study I have seen has confirmed this, the most complete study (that somehow escaped your research efforts, despite being referenced in the first 5 Google responses on the topic). I’ve seen other studies from France, Poland, Canada, USA, Germany and Ireland, each with similar damning conclusions. Please list the ones I’ve missed - if they are actually exculpatory of the catholic church that would be remarkable.
More interesting info:
People say they’re leaving religion due to anti-LGBTQ teachings and sexual abuse
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/27/1240811895/leaving-religion-anti-lgbtq-sexual-abuse
.