Punctuality

The Coffee Shop
1

Revisted from an earlier (no pun intended) thread. Ken had asked why some people can’t be punctual.

I had written this before, but there was something my bass player said recently that really drove it home. I think a lot of the time, people who are constantly late are late because they don’t like waiting for late people. They also seem to have a complete disconnect such that they don’t seem to understand that they cause the same annoyances to everyone else when they are late themselves.

Anyway, my guitar player is chronically late. Two shows ago load in was at 8:00 and we opened at 9:00. He didn’t arrive until 8:40. Now if you aren’t a musician, you may not understand the impact that this has. At 8:40, he has to load in his gear, tune it, and we have to finish sound check in 20 minutes, which is really pushing it. In addition, if we go on late, that pushes every other band back and ends up cutting people’s sets short. Also, if the band goes on late, then everyone who was expecting the band to go on at 9:00 now has to sit in a boring, quiet bar when they came and paid for live music. In this particular instance, the promoter was hoping to have us sound checked by 8:30 and then have the DJ play for a half an hour.

So for our last show I made it clear that he had to be on time. He showed up on time and then was annoyed that the band that came on before us ended up going on an hour later than we were told. FWIW, they were told to go on later because the bar was pretty empty and there was room to push the show back. Most of us don’t mind, because we understand that part of putting on a show is staying around and supporting each other (i.e. most of us just expected to be there the whole time anyway).

Anyway, he made it pretty clear to me that he did not want to show up too early if it turned out that everything would go on later than planned.

I’ve noticed this behavior with several band members in general. They don’t want to be the one waiting for someone else to get ready, so they always make sure that they are the last to be ready. This becomes a particular problem when you have more than one person with this attitutude, because it becomes a competition to see who can be the latest.

Two bands ago, this was the battle between our singer and bass player. Singer didn’t like waiting for people to plug in and tune, so he’d roll in 20 minutes late. The bass player didn’t like waiting 20 minutes for the singer, so he’d show up 20 minutes late…which then got the singer to start showing up 40 minutes late.

2

I think a lot of the time, people who are constantly late are late because they don’t like waiting for late people.
Where I notice destructive positive feedback loops in life, I do my best not to reinforce them by my own behavior.

3

In some cultures punctuality is not important, but what you describe is just selfishness. Those people do not want to wait on anyone, but are fine if others have to wait on them. It’s all about ME!

4

Two bands ago, this was the battle between our singer and bass player. Singer didn’t like waiting for people to plug in and tune, so he’d roll in 20 minutes late. The bass player didn’t like waiting 20 minutes for the singer, so he’d show up 20 minutes late…which then got the singer to start showing up 40 minutes late.

So did that band break up, or is everyone just still waiting for each other to show up for a gig that was scheduled for 2007?

5

If you ain’t 10 minutes early, you are 15 minutes late.

6

It shows quite clearly that the show is not at all important to them. It it would be, they would be on time.

7

being late bothers me a lot. i hate being late and i get really really annoyed when people cause me to be late. (if we are going together) almost everyone in my family is chronically late. a couple years ago i held a birthday party for my sister at my house and she was 2 1/2 hours late! in her case its because she cares only about herself.

8

My personality is ‘early is on time, and on time is late’. That band scenario would drive me crazy.

One observation I’ve made - aside from the selfish people who don’t mind others waiting for them - is that people in positions of power are chronically late. I think they just expect people to wait for them because they have the power.

9

The same here. I’m only late if I’m arriving with someone else who is running late, and even that I find annoying.

10

I think a lot of the time, people who are constantly late are late because they don’t like waiting for late people. They also seem to have a complete disconnect such that they don’t seem to understand that they cause the same annoyances to everyone else when they are late themselves.

As you describe the problem, I’m not sure I see much of a disconnect. It sounds like some people *would *be punctual, but they’ve learned that in some situations, being punctual means they get their time wasted. So they decide not to let that happen.

He showed up on time and then was annoyed that the band that came on before us ended up going on an hour later than we were told. FWIW, they were told to go on later because the bar was pretty empty and there was room to push the show back. Most of us don’t mind, because we understand that part of putting on a show is staying around and supporting each other (i.e. most of us just expected to be there the whole time anyway)

Why are you so much more understanding of the bar owner’s tardiness than your guitar player’s? You were annoyed when he showed up 40 minutes late, even though it didn’t end up pushing anything back. You’re not annoyed when the bar pushes your set back an hour. Hmm.

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One observation I’ve made - aside from the selfish people who don’t mind others waiting for them - is that people in positions of power are chronically late. I think they just expect people to wait for them because they have the power.

My old supervisor was like this. He was never late to any meetings with his superiors (in fact, he wanted us there 10 minutes early if we were involved). He was usually 10-15 minutes late if the meetings were with collegues, and anywhere from 20 to (no kidding) 60 minutes late if it was a meeting with his subordinates.

12

I think some are like that out of spite. But I think some higher ups are just really that busy and have that much going on. Sometimes shit happens unexpectedly and can’t be waited upon. But I agree, some relish in their power.

13

"Why are you so much more understanding of the bar owner’s tardiness than your guitar player’s? You were annoyed when he showed up 40 minutes late, even though it didn’t end up pushing anything back. You’re not annoyed when the bar pushes your set back an hour. Hmm. "

The bar owner sets the schedule and is paying the bands for their play. He can put them on whenever he wants. Not quite the same relationship as between coworkers or band mates.

14

In some cultures punctuality is not important, but what you describe is just selfishness. Those people do not want to wait on anyone, but are fine if others have to wait on them. It’s all about ME!

“Selfish” isn’t quite the right word, but its close enough.

In the case of the two people I’m thinking of, I would use inconsiderate, which really describes their personalities. And by that I really mean they simply don’t think about how thier behavior might impact another person. They view life almost through the eyes of a sociopath where they see other individuals as not being much different than characters in a movie. Showing up late is no different than turning on a TV 10 minutes into a show. All they think is, “oh, I missed the first 10 minutes of the show,” not “wow, those actors on my TV must be annoyed.”

My bass player, particularly. His social skills are so bad that we are pretty certain that he’s on the autism spectrum. Its no big coincidence that his niece has been diagnosed with Aspergers.

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It shows quite clearly that the show is not at all important to them. It it would be, they would be on time.

Yes, that is a correct assessment. Its kind o fliek what I said above. To them a show is no different than watching TV. Its something that they do. My bass player enjoys singing and playing in front of people, but it doesn’t quite connect with him how what he does affects the rest of us.

16

The bar owner sets the schedule and is paying the bands for their play. He can put them on whenever he wants. Not quite the same relationship as between coworkers or band mates.

That is really interesting.

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As you describe the problem, I’m not sure I see much of a disconnect. It sounds like some people *would *be punctual, but they’ve learned that in some situations, being punctual means they get their time wasted. So they decide not to let that happen.

ESM made a pretty good comment about the feedback loop. I actually wrote somethign similar to what you wrote to Ken a while back regarding being late to choir practice. Yes, sometimes being late is the result of others lack of punctuality. However, in this case, these guys are the worst offenders and, at best, are the cause, not the reaction.

Why are you so much more understanding of the bar owner’s tardiness than your guitar player’s? You were annoyed when he showed up 40 minutes late, even though it didn’t end up pushing anything back. You’re not annoyed when the bar pushes your set back an hour. Hmm.

Lets say you went to a BJJ match and were told that the match started at 7 and that you would go on at 9. However, due to two injuries and 3 overtime matches, your match got pushed back to 9:45. Would you be upset at the venue?

The point here is that there is a stark difference between “this is when we expect you to go on if things go as planned,” and “I’m going to show up as late as possible because I’d rather people wait for me than to wait for them.”

An example of this would be that you know that BJJ matches get pushed back, so instead of showing up ready at 9, you show up ready at 9:45, knowing that there’s actually a pretty good chance of your match starting at 9:35. In this case, you’d rather people wait for you for 10 minutes, than to risk being the one who has to wait.

BTW, I know I don’t know boo about BJJ matches, so just roll with the anaology please…and don’t put me in a choke hold!

18

Lets say you went to a BJJ match and were told that the match started at 7 and that you would go on at 9. However, due to two injuries and 3 overtime matches, your match got pushed back to 9:45. Would you be upset at the venue?

No, but I would absolutely be upset if the venue just decided to push the entire competition back an hour or two to wait for more spectators to show up.

The point here is that there is a stark difference between “this is when we expect you to go on if things go as planned,” and “I’m going to show up as late as possible because I’d rather people wait for me than to wait for them.”

Yes, but there’s an equally stark difference between “there have been unforeseen events, and therefore everything is delayed,” and “I think I’ll delay everything by an hour because the bar is still pretty empty.”

I am not surprised by your attitude, because I think it’s pretty common, but I do find it strange. You seem to take it as a sign of disrespect when, say, your band member is late. You don’t seem to have the same issue when someone like, say, the bar owner is cavalier about wasting your** **time- and your band members.

19

“That is really interesting”

How so?

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be irritating, but I think it’s par for the course. It’s an understood part of the deal, that you go on when the proprietor is ready for you to go on. Obviously, if this happens every time you play, it’s more of an issue.

Regardless, the relationship simply isn’t equivalent. There is, or should be, a different sense of obligation between band mates or coworkers than there is between a band and bar owner or between middle management and company President.

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There is, or should be, a different sense of obligation between band mates or coworkers than there is between a band and bar owner or between middle management and company President.

Why is that?** **What exactly is it about the relationship between a bar owner and a band member that makes it acceptable for the bar owner to disrespect the band members time?