Pulling and Kicking

Given the relative frequency with which we discuss, over and over and over and over again, the relative utility of pulling vs kicking, and the value or lack thereof of the pull buoy, i thought i would try to “pull” this all together into a “unified field theory of pulling and kicking”. Based on my observations over the past 40 yrs of swimming, it appears to me that many if not most swimmers will ALWAYS have a relatively weak flutter kick simply b/c they can NOT point their toes well enough to kick fast flutter kick. These swimmers generate 99% of their propulsion from their pull. It appears to me that a swimmer must have a fairly strong kick to be significantly faster w/o the buoy than with it, at any and all paces, i.e. the kind of swimmer who really hates using the buoy. Many competent swimmers (say under a minute for 100 scy) can pull somewhat faster (1-3 sec/100) than they can swim, at sub-maximal pace, i.e. doing say 20 x 200 on short rest; this is simply b/c the buoy puts their lower body in the ideal position w/o having to expend any energy kicking, and hence all their energy can be put into the pull. Note that these same swimmers are prob slightly faster in an all-out 50/100/200 when swimming full stroke, but at longer efforts (I’m undecided on exactly where the cut-off would be in “longer efforts”) they are faster just pulling. My observations lead me to conclude that a swimmer needs to be capable of kicking somewhere in the vicinity of around only 25% slower than their swimming speed, e.g. if they swim 1:20/100, then they need to be able to kick at 1:40/100, to really be a buoy-hater. This level of kicking is much faster than the vast majority of “all swimmers” can kick. Note i said ALL SWIMMERS which thus includes the 3:00/100 scy guys who can’t even kick a single 25 w/o stopping for rest. My observations of the general swimming population are that very few people are naturally fast flutter kickers, like maybe 5% at the most. Certainly, at the college level, that %age is more like 95% but remember that college/former college swimmers are only maybe 0.05% of the 200 million or so swimmers in the country. Of course, you can argue that, well, most swimmers have never worked on their kicking and ankle flex but my observation is that kicking ability is mostly innate: a few guys/girls who can’t swim at all can grab a kick-board and just motor up and down the pool on their first try, but most people can not do this. Similarly, some guys/girls can kick breaststroke faster than any other stroke, and always will be able to, simply b/c their ankles/feet/toes can execute the breast kick much better than free, back, or fly. OTOH, other swimmers are just the opposite: they can kick the 3 strokes just fine but struggle w/ breast. It appears to be mainly innate ability in my observation. Note that kicking ability seems, IMO, to stand in stark opposition to pulling ability, as most swimmers can develop a pretty good pull, but not necessarily a strong kick.

To sum it up: swimmers who are 5-10 sec per 100 faster when swimming full stroke than when just pulling with the buoy, must have pretty strong kicks, as in kicking 1:40/100, or even 1:30/100, at same effort level as swimming 1:20/100. The main reason these swimmers can kick this fast is b/c they have much more toe-pointing ability in their ankles/feet/toes than most of the population.

I’ve been mulling this issue for years and wanted to throw it out for comment. Discuss:)

Well I hate to throw a wrench in your argument so soon, but here is my experience:

10 x 100 on the 1:20 (yards) is my base pace for freestyle (so coming in on 1:13 or so). My best 100 ever is 56 sec.
My absolute, all-out sprint time for a 100 kick with a board is 2:00.
I’m about 5 seconds slower per hundred with the buoy.

I know why I hate the buoy - it messes with my body position and rotation. I don’t think the kick has much to do with it. I used to think that, because it makes logical sense, but I really haven’t found it to be true. I have a weak two-beat kick that serves two purposes: to support my 1) rhythm and 2) body position. I’ve tried to adopt a better kick, and believe me I’d love to have a strong six-beat kick because I do believe it would make me faster - but it just isn’t in the cards for me. I agree with you that some people just have innate kicking/breaststroking/whatever ability, and some of us don’t.

I spend a lot of time watching other people swim (mostly at my own Masters practice - perhaps this is weird but I enjoy it), and there are some decent swimmers there who can pull fast, kick fast, and swim kind of slow. For me, I’m a terrible kicker, lousy puller, and a good swimmer. I find that everything comes together when I can just swim. There is a woman in the lane next to me (slower lane) who swims about my speed on pull sets, destroys me on kick sets (thank God for my giant fins), and swims about 15 seconds slower per hundred than me on swim sets. So I guess her stroke just isn’t coming together the same way? I don’t know.

I’ve read that Katie Ledecky is about average with the pull buoy (compared to her peers - obviously she is not average in any way), so I’ve decided I’m in good company. Then again we are not in the same company whatsoever and she would probably laugh at my swim skills.

To sum up: I think the love/hate relationship people have with pull buoys has more to do with body position than kick.

Well I hate to throw a wrench in your argument so soon, but here is my experience:
10 x 100 on the 1:20 (yards) is my base pace for freestyle (so coming in on 1:13 or so). My best 100 ever is 56 sec.
My absolute, all-out sprint time for a 100 kick with a board is 2:00.
I’m about 5 seconds slower per hundred with the buoy.
I know why I hate the buoy - it messes with my body position and rotation. I don’t think the kick has much to do with it. I used to think that, because it makes logical sense, but I really haven’t found it to be true. I have a weak two-beat kick that serves two purposes: to support my 1) rhythm and 2) body position. I’ve tried to adopt a better kick, and believe me I’d love to have a strong six-beat kick because I do believe it would make me faster - but it just isn’t in the cards for me. I agree with you that some people just have innate kicking/breaststroking/whatever ability, and some of us don’t.
I spend a lot of time watching other people swim (mostly at my own Masters practice - perhaps this is weird but I enjoy it), and there are some decent swimmers there who can pull fast, kick fast, and swim kind of slow. For me, I’m a terrible kicker, lousy puller, and a good swimmer. I find that everything comes together when I can just swim. There is a woman in the lane next to me (slower lane) who swims about my speed on pull sets, destroys me on kick sets (thank God for my giant fins), and swims about 15 seconds slower per hundred than me on swim sets. So I guess her stroke just isn’t coming together the same way? I don’t know.
I’ve read that Katie Ledecky is about average with the pull buoy (compared to her peers - obviously she is not average in any way), so I’ve decided I’m in good company. Then again we are not in the same company whatsoever and she would probably laugh at my swim skills.
To sum up: I think the love/hate relationship people have with pull buoys has more to do with body position than kick.

Wow, my theory shot down on the first reply…oh well… Actually, i have heard of swimmers like you but i would put this type of swimmer in the “fairly rare” category, at least based on my observations, i.e. i’ve never actually seen someone like you. Swimmers like you are kind of semi-mythical creatures: they do exist in the wild but they are very rare.

In any case, thanks very much for responding. One of the interesting things about swimming is that there are so many possible permutations of swimmers. I too long for a powerful 6-beat kick but despite a solid 2 million yards of kicking over past 5 yrs, my free kicking speed is still about same as yours. OTOH, I can still kick breaststroke consid faster than freestyle, back, or fly, despite hardly kicking it at all over the last several yrs of working on the other kicks. JOOC, how is your breast kick???:slight_smile:

I’m s good but not exceptional kicker with a kickboard. Light but apparently very efficient kicker in full stroke freestyle.

Decidedly slower with a pull buoy- it’s not about getting propulsion from my kick. Ir’s because my shoulders tend to create a fair amount of body roll on stroke entry and just after, and I need a light kick to correct that and keep from getting too much body roll. With a pull buoy, my normal movement put me floundering on my side far too long and getting rotated back to the other side for the next arm entry and pull takes extra effort and a bit of gymnastics.

my issue with this theory is that KICKING in long distance/triathlon swimming ISNT ABOUT PROPULSION… it s about timming, rotation, momentum.

so you don’t need to be fast at kicking with a board to be faster at swimming vs pull boey. You simply need to developpe a proper kick that connect the lower and upper body. it dosnt need to propulse you… it simply need to enable the added momentum and timing of the stroke that is so much stronger than pulling only. a 2 beat kick is enough for such purpose…increase beat kick for shorter distance…

joel filliol position on this matter: Learn now to use your kick but don’t spend a lot of time with kick sets. Kicking is about stroke control and body position, not propulsion for triathlon. Kick fitness doesn’t matter.

I’m s good but not exceptional kicker with a kick-board. Light but apparently very efficient kicker in full stroke freestyle.
Decidedly slower with a pull buoy- it’s not about getting propulsion from my kick. Ir’s because my shoulders tend to create a fair amount of body roll on stroke entry and just after, and I need a light kick to correct that and keep from getting too much body roll. With a pull buoy, my normal movement put me floundering on my side far too long and getting rotated back to the other side for the next arm entry and pull takes extra effort and a bit of gymnastics.

Jill - Thanks for weighing in, and apparently my theory is far from on target for a number of swimmers. Swimming is such a complex activity, with many diff answers for diff body types, levels of flexibility, physiology, etc. I guess the theory i described just applies to me and other swimmers of “my type”:slight_smile:

my issue with this theory is that KICKING in long distance/triathlon swimming ISNT ABOUT PROPULSION… it s about timming, rotation, momentum.
so you don’t need to be fast at kicking with a board to be faster at swimming vs pull boey. You simply need to developpe a proper kick that connect the lower and upper body. it dosnt need to propulse you… it simply need to enable the added momentum and timing of the stroke that is so much stronger than pulling only. a 2 beat kick is enough for such purpose…increase beat kick for shorter distance…
joel filliol position on this matter: Learn now to use your kick but don’t spend a lot of time with kick sets. Kicking is about stroke control and body position, not propulsion for triathlon. Kick fitness doesn’t matter.

Right, understand your position, i just wanted to get various opinions on this, which is why i started the new thread, since my other post was buried at the end of that pull buoy thread.

Wow, my theory shot down on the first reply…oh well… Actually, i have heard of swimmers like you but i would put this type of swimmer in the “fairly rare” category, at least based on my observations, i.e. i’ve never actually seen someone like you. Swimmers like you are kind of semi-mythical creatures: they do exist in the wild but they are very rare.

In any case, thanks very much for responding. One of the interesting things about swimming is that there are so many possible permutations of swimmers. I too long for a powerful 6-beat kick but despite a solid 2 million yards of kicking over past 5 yrs, my free kicking speed is still about same as yours. OTOH, I can still kick breaststroke consid faster than freestyle, back, or fly, despite hardly kicking it at all over the last several yrs of working on the other kicks. JOOC, how is your breast kick???:slight_smile:

My breaststroke kick is atrocious! It is so, so bad. I don’t kick well in any of the strokes, to be honest.

However, I will take comfort in the fact that as a freestyler, I am a semi-mythical creature. :wink:

From my personal experience…

I am a strong swimmer (1:25 base) who likes a pull bouy, it is 2-3 sec slower than swimming at the same effort. I find the kick is mostly body position, even when swimming tempo (1:15) the kick is mostly keeping my legs up. This is most noticeable when using pull bouy and band, the 2 beat ‘kick’ I use when I don’t have a band assists with my rotation and body position. Without it my legs sink and I am 10 or more seconds slower per 100.

When I am sprinting I use either a 8 or 10 beat kick where I get a reasonable amount of propulsion from the kick…but that lasts 50m.

I’ll throw another wrench in your works. I have a pretty strong kick (around 1:20 for a flat out 100m these days, 1:35’s to 40’s in kick sets) but in swims of 200m and up I don’t really use it much. It’s either a light 6 beat flutter or a light 2/4 hybrid style. Typically I’m about 5s / 100m slower with the buoy than without.

The kick is really about body position, core stabilization, rotation, and just being able to ride higher in the water. Gary Hall Sr talks about “coupling motions”, which is spot on. You don’t need a super fast kick to take advantage of those coupling motions.

I think you nailed it!

Those that reply to this thread should state their ankle flexibility so that we know each person’s physical abilities to put their comments in perspective. I suggest using terms of a clock; where noon is your feet in a standing position and 3 will be your feet streamlined to your body and anything beyond that (4-6) means you have feet like fins:)

I can only flex my ankles to 2 o’clock sitting here at my desk. And my feet are size 14 so you can imagine what type of drag they produce.

I can hold ~1:20 for a 100 scy set and that improves to ~1:15 with a pull buoy. So, yes, I am pull buoy fan.

At my age I don’t think I’ll ever have a decent kick no matter how much time I put to it so I now look for ways\techniques to hilde those drag anchors I call feet.

“Note that kicking ability seems, IMO, to stand in stark opposition to pulling ability, as most swimmers can develop a pretty good pull, but not necessarily a strong kick.”

I think you are missing a few components and related factors.

  1. Re: statement above - that’s probably because most people
    spend far more time working on their pull than they do their kick. A half hour focused session on improving kick position and mechanics, and another one on integrating that kick back into the stroke can be extremely beneficial for swimmers to improve their swim. yes, in long distance tri we have wetsuit for buoyancy, but many people still need to learn to keep their legs streamlined without a pull buoy holding them together.

  2. I think you are giving lack of ankle flexibility too much credit. Simply kicking a few 25s a few times a week can improve this significantly. It’s so easy to do during a warm up/ cool down. I’ve seen almost as many new swimmer athletes who lack flexibility in hip flexors, or simply don’t know they need to ‘stretch’ their feet up to the surface. A pull buoy will keep your hips up, but not feet. Artificially raising the hips is like solving half the problem in this case - and when in a wetsuit, the feet may still be likely to drag - I won’t guess what percentage of athletes this applies too, but I see a lot of feet a long way under water despite wetsuits, in mid to back of pack swimmers.

  3. Body position / head position - often needs to be adjusted for added/reduced pull buoy buoyancy. My head position needs to come
    Up slightly with a pull buoy (or a wetsuit) to compensate for the raised hips. If I add a buoy and keep my head position the same as my swim, I end up burying my head and swimming ‘downhill’ - which is not the direction I want to be swimming - I want to swim forward and on top of the water of course.

A swimmer who can pull faster than they can swim full stroke, who is serious about improvement, needs to find a good coach to teach them proper kick mechanics and proper integration into the stroke. A good kick can be a good tool in your tool box to use tactically as appropriate. A bad kick leaves you without that option.

I train mostly with a pull buoy but not because I have a bad kick. I have a good kick - 1:45 100m w board - I train with a pull buoy to gain the strength-endurance in my pull. Have been training this way for 3yrs maybe, and can now pull just as fast as I can swim (anything over 1500m). But that took a lot of work. Still haven’t quite figured out the wetsuit piece tho - that would be an interesting discussion - exactly how the pull buoy relates to wetsuit swimming. I can swim 4K in 57, and can pull 4K in 57, but cannot get IM under 1hr. There are likely some slight body position/head position changes I need to make with the wetsuit that I haven’t figured out yet. Or maybe it’s my flip turns and underwater work- which are not great, but probably net gain as opposed to loss in speed. I figure need to swim approx 6sec (per 100) faster in the pool with a pull buoy to equate my open water times. I.e train 1:24 100ms in the pool w buoy to equal a 1:30/100 open water pace.

A survey on this topic would be a pretty cool thing to have done.

I’m slightly faster with a pull buoy and I have a pretty lousy kick. For some strange reason I can’t kick at all with the board on my belly. But when I kick on my back w/o the board I do OK. I’ve never timed myself on kick sets I think I will now just to find out.

When we do kick sets w/o fins I do breastroke with the board as I am much faster with the whip kick than the flutter. If I do a set of 10, 15 or 20 100’s I’ll use the pull bouy every 4th 100 and I am 2-3 seconds faster than without. On a set of 10x100’s (SCY) I average about 1:22-1:23 w/o the bouy a few seconds faster with it.

I’ll throw my n=1 in here.

When I was a real swimmer I was a fast kicker - best kick set ever was 10x100scy on 1:05. I was also a fast puller at distance 10x400 pull on 3:55 holding 3:45 or better. If I were to guess - I think my threshold pulling and swimming probably would have been the same. i.e. 15-20x100 on 1:30 no speed difference pulling and swimming. Also to me pulling indicates paddles - without paddles swimming is way (5s/100?) faster.

I became a good kicker because I broke my collar bone on 2 separate occasions and could only kick for months (including college training trip and kicking 10,000yd workouts). If I could only be in the pool with one set of equipment for the rest of my life though it would be paddles/buoy/snorkel.

In my opinion I think all triathletes should be better kickers precisely so that don’t have to kick. The problems I see with body position, which the buoy fixes, could be ameliorated with solid kick fundamentals. Plus being able to go to your legs to open or close a swim gap is a nice luxury to have.

YMMV

https://swimswam.com/142488-2/

having just read this - and seen the 3*100 Kick - fastest on 1:06 its quite clear I’m not a swimmer…

I mostly agree with your analysis… will give you my n=1 account which hopefully can add some value.

In my HS/college days of distance swimming, I was able to hold around 1:00 on 100 scy repeats consistently with short rest. I was a very good kicker; I could hold under 1:20 on 100 flutter kick repeats with short rest. I had/have very good plantar flexion in my ankles; they flex to 180 degrees or even more, i.e. ballerina feet (as opposed to my hamstrings/calves which have the flexibility of a 90 year old). I also have size 14 feet.

As a result of this, my pull is significantly slower with just a buoy; even more so with a band. Today, I do my swim repeats between 1:05-1:10 but usually pull between 1:10-1:15. Not only does the kick provide propulsive power, but typically, the kick will serve as a natural metronome to keep tempo and momentum in tact. It also helps regulate body position which means that the flotation effect of the buoy is relatively subdued. I also don’t think my pull is exceptionally strong as I was never a sprinter and had less upper body strength than sprinters.

Now, you also argue that the kick expends extra energy. This is true if you isolate the kicking effort, but experience has taught me that the kick (for me, at least) actually lessens the overall energy expenditure from your pull due to its effect of conservation of momentum in between strokes. I guess an analogy would be gearing on a bike - at 20mph, it is much easier to push any gear than at 10mph due to the angular momentum of the wheel.

To summarize, I believe good kickers will probably not be faster while pulling, but, this can be derailed by overall lousy body position, an exceptionally strong pull, or a combination of the two.

Can you clarify for discussion,when you say pulling, do you mean paddles+buoy or buoy only.

Wow, my theory shot down on the first reply…oh well… Actually, i have heard of swimmers like you but i would put this type of swimmer in the “fairly rare” category, at least based on my observations, i.e. i’ve never actually seen someone like you. Swimmers like you are kind of semi-mythical creatures: they do exist in the wild but they are very rare.

In any case, thanks very much for responding. One of the interesting things about swimming is that there are so many possible permutations of swimmers. I too long for a powerful 6-beat kick but despite a solid 2 million yards of kicking over past 5 yrs, my free kicking speed is still about same as yours. OTOH, I can still kick breaststroke consid faster than freestyle, back, or fly, despite hardly kicking it at all over the last several yrs of working on the other kicks. JOOC, how is your breast kick???:slight_smile:

My breaststroke kick is atrocious! It is so, so bad. I don’t kick well in any of the strokes, to be honest. However, I will take comfort in the fact that as a freestyler, I am a semi-mythical creature. :wink:

Well, we can’t all be good at everything, and very few are semi-mythical creatures:)

Can you clarify for discussion,when you say pulling, do you mean paddles+buoy or buoy only.

I mean just pulling w/o paddles. Sorry, should’ve clarified to start with; i read your comments in another thread where you said your swimmers do not “just pull” w/o paddles but i have swum with several masters groups who did pulling just with the buoy, w/o the paddles. Certainly, virtually all swimmers are going to be faster with both.

Have to say that I am almost exactly as you describe. I was a competitive swimmer before the age of twenty (in the days when you were old at twenty one). But my strokes were Breastroke, butterfly, backstroke and freestyle, in that order. So naturally stronger in the shoulders, with a (once upon a time) wicked breastroke kick ( although not the modern kick, so a bit sad by today’s speed). As a freestyle swimmer I am about 5 - 7 seconds faster on a 100m with a kick, less on a 200, even on a 400 and faster with a PB with anything beyond 400. I kick a 1:20 50m (not 100, but 50) and have for twenty years. I should say that apart from Olympic or national level swimmers I have never seen anyone kick a sub 40 sec 50m, singly or in a set (not including dolphin or half a length underwater). And the last Masters Swim club (not Tri related) I swam in, had several Olympic and National level swimmers both past and present.

Those that can are outliers, with the correct foot shape, flexibility, leg strength, and body form etc, etc etcetera! . That’s why they are champions, the sport is made for them, they didn’t make themselves for the sport. As for flexibility, I can happily sit on my ankles, point my toes like a ballet dancer, all of those things. If I put fins on, leg strength is fine and I go as fast as the best kickers, who are also wearing fins. But take them off and I make foam. I suspect it’s foot shape and leg shape that affects it to some degree, my arches are so high my foot makes two wet marks on a pool deck. I have done 1000m sets kicking for weeks at a time and nothing improves other than recovery time.

My observations in Triathlon masters swimming is that few come to the sport from a swimming background. They tend to treat swimming as the easy practice. None break a sweat, and for those who really swim, they know you can break a sweat. Few ever attempt to alter their stroke, few ever do any strength training for their stroke, whether that’s pulling with or without paddles or “god forbid” doing a pushup. Only a tiny number film their swim. The biggest single improvement they can ever make is to improve their pull. To tell them otherwise is a fraud. Most of the readers here, apart from the studs, are just that, adult learners. Until they can smoothly swim stroke, breath properly, reach fully, rotate correctly with or without a kick, they are fooling themselves and being fooled buying into the fallacy that kicking is the secret. Go take a look at the best swimmers on the blocks and take note of where the muscles are, even on the women.

As for swim times that people post here, get real people. If you can swim under 25 mins for 1500m you will come out in the top 5 in almost any age group, locally or regionally. So when I read about practices of 20 (50,100) x 100m leaving on 1:20 or better I know it’s not a triathlete because no one, other than 2 or 3 in any race ever swims that.

To check I went back and looked at the recent ITU Worlds in Chicago, out of over 1000 men only 36 broke 20 minutes. In the most competitive age groups, for example 35-39, only 2 broke 20 and only 29 out of 112 went below 23 minutes, which is above 1:30 as an average.

So how about some real world advice to swimmers from some of the stars on here. The best bang for your buck is learning a proper pull, period.
And for those who pull slower, by any margin than a few seconds, have you ever considered how much faster you would be if you could pull properly. :0)

cheers.