Pull buoy observation today in the pool.... interesting

Triathlon Forum
1

So a couple of weeks ago I attended a swim camp at The Race Club where I was encouraged to transition my stroke from a “hip-driven” to a “shoulder-driven” technique. While swimming hip-driven I had a slow cadence and almost “catch up” timing. At 6’2" 165lbs I’ve always been able to maintain solid body position in the past with just a normal speedo pull buoy with my butt just breaching the surface and my heels just barely below the surface.

The Race Club isn’t too keen on pull buoys and, as such, I haven’t used one in a couple of weeks. Today I just felt like pulling so I grabbed one from the deck and popped it between my legs. As soon as I started swimming I could feel it: my legs were sinking… A LOT. So at the end of the pool I stop and extend my arms in front of me in a streamline, head down, pull buoy in… bam, good body position. Huh, ok. Swim another length: legs are dragging again. For kicks I decide to just get another pull buoy and pop it in. Body position fixed and I’m cruising (no flip turns though, lol). At the end of my workout I decided for kicks I’d switch back to my old stroke with one pull buoy and, just like that, my body position was back to being solid with just one buoy.

On the drive home, it occurred to me that with my old stroke the “average” position of my arms was one arm extended out in front and one arm roughly parallel to my head which gave me some counterbalance out front to float my legs up. With my new stroke, the “average” position of my arms is that both are out to my side (recovering arm elbow about at ear, other arm about halfway through the pull). As such I don’t have anything out in front of me to counterbalance.

Does this make sense to anyone? Should I invest in a buoy with a bit more floatation for when I want to pull?

2

Try the Sutto way, cut one in half and glue it to a full pull buoy… check out this article he posted a few days ago

http://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

3

Makes sense to me and to think about this is a good thing.

Most people’s COB or center of buoyancy is say just below the rib cage(ie lungs). If your center of mass/gravity COG is close then you float pretty level. I think women in general have the advantage here. However at 6 two and 165 you may have long legs and a lower COG (toward the feet). I know I do at 6 one and 170. This means it’s a real struggle to float without sinking legs. Like it’s brutal.

So you have to throw what you can to the bow (front), raise the arms /shoulders relative to the head and torso, have a perfectly in-line head with no deviation, and have an awesome core to hinge the legs up. A beast of a kick doesn’t hurt either. Oh and no lift generated, only propulsion from your pull. Pretty much a technically perfect stroke, just to be able to swim!!

The hip driven stroke creates a hull effect (resonance) that helps the body move through the water. If you are hydrodynamic upfront and efficient you can look slow but move fast. At least this is my observation studying top swimmers.

I also noticed that if you brawl - ie rapid high turnover arm driven stroke, there is another effect that takes place that is very cool. I made a video this summer when I was experimenting with this.

I am curious to why they wanted you to move to an arm driven stroke and was it primarily for wetsuit OW??

4

thanks for posting the link. After a couple of years of avoiding floatation aids, I fully agree with what is being said there.

To me it is very related to yoga poses as well. For example the kickboard is effectively a Cobra pose, and this improves body position. Same for the pull buoy, kind of a mild version of the Locust pose. Increase the size, increase the effect. Both improve the position in the water and extend training time

I just ordered a set of Speedo contour paddles. I was training with an OW “state” champ, used his setup and was really impressed. I really liked the feel of the contours. I thought the paddles increased the precision of my stroke by penalizing me when I made a mistake.

5

Yeah, it just so happens the majority of my races are wet-suit legal and I conveyed this at the swim camp. Basically, Gary’s take was that I suck at kicking (I do) and that if I’m basically wearing a big pull buoy in most of my races… especially my A/B races… I would get a lot more out of my training from a shoulder driven technique. Plus, I already had a fair amount of upper body strength.

Correct about my build: 6’2" 165lbs, long legs, short torso. I’m also fairly lean: 6-8% bf depending on the day and the scale (I know, total fatass for Slowtwitch) and I don’t float that well in general. On a full breath in fresh water I barely float with the top of my head beneath the surface.

Gary’s take was that for a hip-driven stroke to work you need a strong propulsive kick and I can’t really disagree with that… he actually mentioned that they had a device that measured the acceleration/deceleration of a swimmer and that they could estimate total energy expenditure. Someone with my stroke rate and without a strong kick would be very inefficient as a hip driven swimmer with the catch being that I would be more efficient if I elevated my stroke rate but I would essentially be just “pulling” at near-elite speeds because of my arm span. So the shorter stroke facilitated by a shoulder driven technique allows me to have a higher turnover and to be more efficient (less variation in the speed of my body) at a reasonable speed.

6

I experienced this as well. I went at it from a slightly different approach b/c I dropped tri/open water in favor of pool events. That said my coach said the same thing…develop a really good kick or change up your timing. He actually had me go to the other extreme of a near windmill(think Janet Evans) and then gradually add in some catch up timing. It really only took me a week or so to get comfortable with it, but man what a change in my times. All from stroke timing. I have a decent kick and it’s always on, but not good enough to keep moving fast when I go to a more catch-uppy stroke. I kind of warm up with a slower catchup stroke, but when it’s time to work I go to more shoulder driven.

7

Dumb question… why not just fix your kick? I don’t think it’s that the kick is propulsion… so much as it’s aiding body roll, counters the yaw generated while pulling with 1 arm, raises your hips and doesn’t generate drag.

8

So I don’t want to speak for The Race Club (Gary et al) but this was what I took away regarding kick (ordinal):

Hip driven:
-propulsion
-drive rotation
-counter-yaw

Shoulder driven:
-counter-yaw
-drive rotation
-propulsion

Don’t get me wrong, I’m still doing a lot of kick work even though the stroke I’m using now is supposedly far less kick dependent. At the Race Club camp I attended, I saw precisely zero pull buoys and zero pull sets… thing is I actually like pulling! It’s nice to keep my head down for five, six, or seven strokes while doing a set.

Regarding your suggestion “why not just fix your kick”, Gary said I could follow that route but I would not see progress for at least a year and that within that year the majority of my volume would be kick only work… and even that might not be enough to be a “good” kicker (I’m sure that’s a relative term considering kicking 1:30/100m is supposedly normal for “good” swimmers). Given the goal time he said was reasonable for me one year hence using a shoulder driven technique, I decided that was probably the better path to take.

9

I experienced this as well. I went at it from a slightly different approach b/c I dropped tri/open water in favor of pool events. That said my coach said the same thing…develop a really good kick or change up your timing. He actually had me go to the other extreme of a near windmill(think Janet Evans) and then gradually add in some catch up timing. It really only took me a week or so to get comfortable with it, but man what a change in my times. All from stroke timing. I have a decent kick and it’s always on, but not good enough to keep moving fast when I go to a more catch-uppy stroke. I kind of warm up with a slower catchup stroke, but when it’s time to work I go to more shoulder driven.

So that’s sort of what I’ve done sans adding in the catch-up timing (then again maybe it’s still in there naturally… dunno). I went from a stroke rate of low 50s to high 80s at the camp and have since backed off to low 70s for longer sets. If I’m sprinting a 50 it will be high 80s low 90s which, for me, feels 100% windmill.

Man, Janet Evans is just mesmerizing to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw Looks like she would be a phenomenal open water swimmer. When she breathes it borderline looks like she’s sighting, lol. Almost a bit of… dolphin kick?.. in her motion as well.

10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ
.

11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

Right but now, due to the timing of my stroke, my arms are no longer in front of my head on average thus making that impossible. If I switch to more of a catch-up timing and a hip driven stroke I can maintain a good body position with either a normal pull buoy or a minimal kick.

12

Well this summer I wanted to try a ultra-high turnover, choppy sprint stroke to see how fast I could actually move my arms (the screen swipes in the video are about 11M). What I found was that with the frenetic turnover came lift. And with this lift came less drag. It’s as if you are almost planing vs being a displacement hull. I use this brawling vs my son at 1:20 I almost start with doing a fly coming off the dive for some reason.

http://youtu.be/0eRhJVUpowI

My wife is a swim coach and thought that the high turnover, short stroke was just bonkers. But I argued it seemed oddly fast, and surprisingly maintainable once you get up on plane.

Back in the pool, sometimes with the swim club I am using a hip driven stroke and working on my kick. I am horrible kicka. Coming from zero propulsion & now about 50% slower on the kickboard than my daughter. If I use TYR burner fins I can keep pace with her. eg we did 75M kick,pull, swim the other day which is really fun.

I found myself not using a wetsuit this year. I even raced without a suit when I could have used one. I might be stubborn but I would really like to be able to swim “properly” (ie traditional hip driven) and be able to kick well too. I am not sure if that is achievable in my lifetime :open_mouth:

Re: Janet Evans - her size and body shape in the water obviously suits this style and proves that it is effective

13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

Right but now, due to the timing of my stroke, my arms are no longer in front of my head on average thus making that impossible. If I switch to more of a catch-up timing and a hip driven stroke I can maintain a good body position with either a normal pull buoy or a minimal kick.

And yet I manage to have a high leg position with absolute minimal kicking and completely shoulder-driven (no catch-up whatsoever) typically at 80spm, because I use those muscles shown.

14

So a couple of weeks ago I attended a swim camp at The Race Club where I was encouraged to transition my stroke from a “hip-driven” to a “shoulder-driven” technique. While swimming hip-driven I had a slow cadence and almost “catch up” timing. At 6’2" 165lbs I’ve always been able to maintain solid body position in the past with just a normal speedo pull buoy with my butt just breaching the surface and my heels just barely below the surface.

The Race Club isn’t too keen on pull buoys and, as such, I haven’t used one in a couple of weeks. Today I just felt like pulling so I grabbed one from the deck and popped it between my legs. As soon as I started swimming I could feel it: my legs were sinking… A LOT. So at the end of the pool I stop and extend my arms in front of me in a streamline, head down, pull buoy in… bam, good body position. Huh, ok. Swim another length: legs are dragging again. For kicks I decide to just get another pull buoy and pop it in. Body position fixed and I’m cruising (no flip turns though, lol). At the end of my workout I decided for kicks I’d switch back to my old stroke with one pull buoy and, just like that, my body position was back to being solid with just one buoy.

On the drive home, it occurred to me that with my old stroke the “average” position of my arms was one arm extended out in front and one arm roughly parallel to my head which gave me some counterbalance out front to float my legs up. With my new stroke, the “average” position of my arms is that both are out to my side (recovering arm elbow about at ear, other arm about halfway through the pull). As such I don’t have anything out in front of me to counterbalance.

Does this make sense to anyone? Should I invest in a buoy with a bit more floatation for when I want to pull?

Maybe I am “old school” but I’ve always been told that, regardless of hip-driven or shoulder-driven or whatever driven, BOTH of your hands should ALWAYS be at or in front of your head. IOW, when one arm is stretching out to begin the pull and is fully extended, almost straight, your other recovering arm will be passing by your eye level. In fact for me, when I focus on it while breathing, I can see my recovering arm/hand passing by my eye level on my breathing side as i stretch the other arm out to pull. I’ve been told that my hand actually exits in front of where it enters the water, not behind where it enters, as it does for most swimmers.

So, i wonder if your stroke timing is messed up??? Surely The Race Club did not mean for you to have both arms out to your side???

15

So a couple of weeks ago I attended a swim camp at The Race Club where I was encouraged to transition my stroke from a “hip-driven” to a “shoulder-driven” technique. While swimming hip-driven I had a slow cadence and almost “catch up” timing. At 6’2" 165lbs I’ve always been able to maintain solid body position in the past with just a normal speedo pull buoy with my butt just breaching the surface and my heels just barely below the surface.

The Race Club isn’t too keen on pull buoys and, as such, I haven’t used one in a couple of weeks. Today I just felt like pulling so I grabbed one from the deck and popped it between my legs. As soon as I started swimming I could feel it: my legs were sinking… A LOT. So at the end of the pool I stop and extend my arms in front of me in a streamline, head down, pull buoy in… bam, good body position. Huh, ok. Swim another length: legs are dragging again. For kicks I decide to just get another pull buoy and pop it in. Body position fixed and I’m cruising (no flip turns though, lol). At the end of my workout I decided for kicks I’d switch back to my old stroke with one pull buoy and, just like that, my body position was back to being solid with just one buoy.

On the drive home, it occurred to me that with my old stroke the “average” position of my arms was one arm extended out in front and one arm roughly parallel to my head which gave me some counterbalance out front to float my legs up. With my new stroke, the “average” position of my arms is that both are out to my side (recovering arm elbow about at ear, other arm about halfway through the pull). As such I don’t have anything out in front of me to counterbalance.

Does this make sense to anyone? Should I invest in a buoy with a bit more floatation for when I want to pull?

Maybe I am “old school” but I’ve always been told that, regardless of hip-driven or shoulder-driven or whatever driven, BOTH of your hands should ALWAYS be at or in front of your head. IOW, when one arm is stretching out to begin the pull and is fully extended, almost straight, your other recovering arm will be passing by your eye level. In fact for me, when I focus on it while breathing, I can see my recovering arm/hand passing by my eye level on my breathing side as i stretch the other arm out to pull. I’ve been told that my hand actually exits in front of where it enters the water, not behind where it enters, as it does for most swimmers.

So, i wonder if your stroke timing is messed up??? Surely The Race Club did not mean for you to have both arms out to your side???

Dunno. Will film and email and report back. At the moment, if I breathe to my right, I can see my fingertips pass in front of my face as I’m nearly halfway through my pull with my left arm.

16

So a couple of weeks ago I attended a swim camp at The Race Club where I was encouraged to transition my stroke from a “hip-driven” to a “shoulder-driven” technique. While swimming hip-driven I had a slow cadence and almost “catch up” timing. At 6’2" 165lbs I’ve always been able to maintain solid body position in the past with just a normal speedo pull buoy with my butt just breaching the surface and my heels just barely below the surface.

The Race Club isn’t too keen on pull buoys and, as such, I haven’t used one in a couple of weeks. Today I just felt like pulling so I grabbed one from the deck and popped it between my legs. As soon as I started swimming I could feel it: my legs were sinking… A LOT. So at the end of the pool I stop and extend my arms in front of me in a streamline, head down, pull buoy in… bam, good body position. Huh, ok. Swim another length: legs are dragging again. For kicks I decide to just get another pull buoy and pop it in. Body position fixed and I’m cruising (no flip turns though, lol). At the end of my workout I decided for kicks I’d switch back to my old stroke with one pull buoy and, just like that, my body position was back to being solid with just one buoy.

On the drive home, it occurred to me that with my old stroke the “average” position of my arms was one arm extended out in front and one arm roughly parallel to my head which gave me some counterbalance out front to float my legs up. With my new stroke, the “average” position of my arms is that both are out to my side (recovering arm elbow about at ear, other arm about halfway through the pull). As such I don’t have anything out in front of me to counterbalance.

Does this make sense to anyone? Should I invest in a buoy with a bit more floatation for when I want to pull?

Maybe I am “old school” but I’ve always been told that, regardless of hip-driven or shoulder-driven or whatever driven, BOTH of your hands should ALWAYS be at or in front of your head. IOW, when one arm is stretching out to begin the pull and is fully extended, almost straight, your other recovering arm will be passing by your eye level. In fact for me, when I focus on it while breathing, I can see my recovering arm/hand passing by my eye level on my breathing side as i stretch the other arm out to pull. I’ve been told that my hand actually exits in front of where it enters the water, not behind where it enters, as it does for most swimmers.

So, i wonder if your stroke timing is messed up??? Surely The Race Club did not mean for you to have both arms out to your side???

Dunno. Will film and email and report back. At the moment, if I breathe to my right, I can see my fingertips pass in front of my face as I’m nearly halfway through my pull with my left arm.

Whereas for me i see my fingertips passing in front of my face when the opposite arm is fully stretched out and/or just starting the pull. Can’t really remember exactly as it has been awhile since i paid this sort of attention, plus it depends to some degree how fast i’m trying to swim, i.e. a little less stretching out when trying to go faster.