Anyone use prolotherapy for bad back - tighten ligaments? Not very conventional, but maybe worth try. Any advice?
Advice? Stay away.
Honestly though, can’t give any since no one really knows (read, very little data to prove it’s effectiveness). That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, just that in Western medicine you can’t get any real “advice”, only anecdotal reports. However, acupuncture and chiropractic both started out this way and have largely stood the test of time, despite the paucity in the “western” scientific literature (although there are quite a few over the years) so lack of evidence does not always mean anything.
Thanks for responding; what would you do if you thought back ligaments damaged?
I’ve done core work til I am blue in the face. I’ve done ice, inversion, PT, chiro and it still proves bothersome to training. I know of one instance where an older world class triathlete used prolo and ART is back on the road again.
I’ve been seen by ortho, his prescription was PTand core. He mentioned maybe shots in the future. What would these shots/epidurals do?
Anybody recommend a great back ortho in Atlanta area for 2d opinion. Thanks
He is talking about an epidural corticosteroid injection to reduce pain/inflammation in the area - usually done under fluoroscopy guidance to be sure where you are going.
Lets just “assume” prolotherapy can/could work for you. I would be quite hesitant to let somene inject my spine if not properly trained to do said injection (no matter the concoction) - i.e. orthopedist, anesthesiologist, pain specialist, etc. Many “prolo” proponents do not have this type of training. And again, this type of injection often needs to be done in a hospital setting with C-Arm (fluoroscopy, a kind of X-ray) guidance, depending upon location.
Good luck!
Your observations are spot on to the ones of the triathlete that used prolo. His physician was a neurologist/pain specialist and used a “camera”, which I assume was a fluoroscope.
Any orthopedists out there? What can be done for injured back ligaments? Trying to keep the topic going.
First…prolotherapy is a treatment that has failed to show an “scientific” proof of effectiveness…i.e. there are anectodal reports(i.e. the triathlete) but no good quality studies out there to prove it works more than a placebo-type effect…it sounds good but has not proven itself…the triathlete that it worked on was also undergoing ART, so how do we know it wasn’t the ART that was helping. Next, have you had diagnostic studies such as x-ray or MRI and what did they show??? How do you know it the back “ligaments”…where did you get this diagnosis??? Get back to me for more discussion…
Had xray and mri done in july; showed bulge disk (l4-5) and some disk degeneration, though doc said xrays look generally good for age(59).
Used chiro for years, but 2 years ago experienced some major trauma a wrenching motion of the back that hurt more than the typical back pains I’ve had for many years. It felt like something tearing/stretching at the time. It dissipated, but had recurrence in june for which xrays and mri done. could barely sit up straight for longer than 20 minutes. rx was for core work, which i’ve done along with ultrasound by PT. i ice, invert, stretch, work the core, deep tissue, naprosyn till i am blue in the face.
pain has been all over my low back area when it happened flaring all the way out to the top of the pelvic bones. now tightness on left side ,pain tends to be there as well but can jump to the right side as well. i do stretches the pt recommended but some days it feels like it helps/loosens the back, other days not. it is a hit or miss. since i am training for st. anthony’s i really don’t want to stop training and try to figure which hurts more biking or running. what is odd is pain is generally not bad when biking or running, but following day. i can’t figure out which is worse biking or running because of the hit or miss thing.
i feel like muscles(back, quads, glutes, hams, psoas, etc.) are in much better shape and more in balance. doc said lots of folks have bulging disks. so i just feel like my guy wires are not functioning properly…not supporting the spine causing bulge to perhaps wander around pinching nerves.
when i talked with triathlete who had prolo done…he too had disk degeneration as the major culprit. he directed me to site and it suggested lax ligaments a possible source of problems.
what would you do to pinpoint problem? xrays and mri probably don’t tell whole story…how bout bone scans? what should i ask my ortho if i go back to him…and it takes forever to see him? how many visits before he can state with great confidence what the true problem is. docs seem so busy these days…how do you work with them to get a resolution without being a total pain in the ass?
any help would be much appreciated. id do have report where a lot of medical lingo such as concentric dis osteophyte complex with bilateral facet joint hypertrophy stated. be glad to rattle more of it off for you if that would help.
thanks in advance.
sounds like you need a good diagnosis first. A bone scan will not help at all and give you no more information than you already have. A diagnostic block may both diagnostic and therapeutic. Most large orthopedic or neurological groups (around major cities) have a dedicated spine guy that would be most helpful.
Good luck!
The last statement you made may hold the clue…you mention your report said “facet joint hypertrophy”…you could have a facet joint block by a pain management specialist (usually an anesthesiologist) for both diagnostic and therapeutic benefit…sometimes a couple of injections are needed to get max. benefit…if inj. helps even temporarily then facet joint is your diagnosis,if that doesn’t work, then the MRI of the bulging disc is important…if the bulging disc is pushing on a nerve or causing “foramen stenosis” then an epidural steroid injection may help, if this helps temp then this is the diagnosis…ask your orthopod if you have “foramen stenosis” based on the MRI, if he/she doesn’t then ask for “facet joint blocks”…I agree, probably no other studies to order at this time…
Thanks…I should have included the whole paragraph about l4-5
**"**there is concentric disc osteophyte complex, eccentric to the left with possible touching and displacement of the ascending left l5 nerve root at this level. there is bilateral facet joint hypertrophy, increased t2 signal with the bilateral facet joints and ligamentum favum infolding without definte focal and disc herniation, central canal spinal or neural foraminal stenoisis. there may be touching of the right exiting l4 nerve roots by disc osteophyte complex within the neural foramina…
also at l4-5, …without definite focal and disc herniation, central canal spinal or neural foraminal stenois, there is probable tourching of the right exiting l5 nerve roots by cisc oseophyte complex within the neural foramina.
impression:multilevel probable degenerative changes of the lumbar and incompletely visualized thoracic spine without frank central canal spinal or neural foraminal stenoisis…possible tourching of nerve roots as tetailed above."
Because i was somewhat inactive (just core work) pain subsided some and his rx was just core work…when i started back training to include bike and run pains have been hit and miss but several times a week…subsides, even when training, and starts all over again.
I guess i need to go back to him…I appreciate the time and your thoughtful responses.
i forgot to ask…how long out of training for facet block; how long between facet blocks if they try another…and do i quit training while all this is going on?
i still wonder if the wrenching action/injury impacted my guy wires which in turn has caused the nerve pinching at an accelerated rate over the past 2 years?
i’m pathetic…i just don’t won’t to quit this sport.
Although I don’t know all the medical details, my husband had ART, prolotherapy, adjustments, weekly massages, PT and probably a couple of other therapies to help what was diagnosed as tendinosis. He also tried periods of extended rest and well as just trying to push on to see if it got any better. So far, no success. Some times it hurts less, sometimes it hurts more, but I think it always hurts him and is causing him a great amount of frustration.
The prolotherapy was pretty painful from what he said, but I think he’d try it again if he thought it would help.
My thought is if the disc is “touching” the nerve root (even though no obvious stenosis)an epidural might be worth at least one try (if it helps may need to get 1 or 2 more), if it doesn’t then I would try a facet block route next. Im not an anesthiologist so it seems usually they will wait 3-4 weeks before another injection…as far as training I wouldn’t train 24 hours AFTER the injection so as to allow the local anesthetitic to wear off so you don’t hurt yourself because your numbed up…but could train probably about your usual amount right now…even if you feel alot better after the injection don’t jump into increased training just SLOWLY inc volume as not to overdo!!! Hopefully there is an anestheliogist out there who would chime in on those questions!! Any more questions let me know!!
I would suspect it was the other treatment he was receiving, and not the prolotherapy, that helped him get better. Next time just go with the other treatments.
again thank you…i have set appt for next week (only 1 time slot and i got it)
i think i understand about helping the nerve/pain situation. & epidural…
but what if my guy wires are stretched/damaged…specifically the ligaments…how are those addressed/healed? or does epidural/blocks help those as well…
sorry to be so inquisitive?
I would suspect that the ligament if stretched would have healed what they are going to at this point…Since you’ve done massive core and other strengthening, you’ve done all you can for this part at this time…
I am currently undergoing prolotherapy for SI joint problems. I have had SI joint problems for 3 or 4 years, Ive tried Chiro, PT, and ART. ART worked the best but didnt last. So far the prolotherapy seems to be working, but its still early, only a month and 2 treatments.
who administers…type of doctor
do they use floruscope/camera
who recommended
ballpark cost per session? does your insurance ,if applicable, cover this unconventional treatment? (skip if you think inappropriate)
the reason i ask is the websites i’ve seen suggest not very costly, but they don’t seem to impart how serious injecting your spine is …
best of luck
Nothing has helped him … not the prolotheraphy nor the other treatments. He’s still in pain. As I said, so far, no success. He’s still looking for help because he’s still in pain.