I do a hill climb TT every-other-Thursday. Last night was the first time I tried to pace myself using a power meter (I just installed it last week).
I’ve done the preliminary tests, and I have a reasonable idea of my power zones. So, my question for the experts is this: Is there a way to determine what the upper and lower wattage boundaries should be in a race like this (uphill, but varying grades between 3% and 8% - climb ~900 feet over 5k) based on my power zones?
My FT is around 300 watts.
My 5 min max is around 380 watts.
My 1 min max is around 600 watts.
I weigh 70 kg.
My average power for last night’s race was 325 watts (NP was 326 watts). I put an upper limit of 380 watts on any effort (except the final 500 meters) and a lower limit of 275 watts on the flatter sections. Please keep in mind when looking at these numbers that the hill climb starts at approximately 7,200 feet of elevation (I’m sure that affects my power output and pacing strategy).
I’m 8 seconds away from my goal pace, and I’d bet a lot of money that I can find that 8 seconds simply by better pacing myself. My questions are of the following variety: Is it better to go a bit harder on the steeper sections and a bit slower on the flatter sections? Is it better to try to maintain a constant power output for the entire course, regardless of steepness? Et cetera.
Well I’m not a TT expert, but have been training with power since the beginning of the year
Did an uphill TT (10K) earlier in the month. I had my FT pegged around 320 or 325. I went at what I thought was conservative for the first half for an avg of ~325 for and harder on the second 1/2 and averaged 339 total. NP was 341 which tells me the spikes were not too bad and pacing was decent. IF came out to ~1.075 for 28.5 minutes so FT was about right or within a few watts from what I can gather out of Coggan/Hunter’s book.
As far as an upper and lower limit - I tried not to go too far in the red as the climb got steeper but did end up with a few small spikes over 500. Mentally I was just trying to keep it over 300 and it seemed to work out ok - did not blow up and was pretty spent at the end and out of breath. Could only hit about 675 on a sprint at the end when I normally go over 1100.
I was going to say that your pacing was great until I examined the scale more closely. Your power profile is fairly close to mine. Given the relatively small variations in grade/speed, I would not let my power drop below 300, and certainly not below 275 as you did here. Go for a range of 300 to 350.
I really only dropped below 275 one time (flat section of about 400 meters). I smoothed the graph a bit to try and compensate for the times when my power tap dropped the signal (and power went to 0).
I’m not an expert either and hope to hear from them on this also, but consider myself a resonably good climber. What I have noticed on my hill workouts and long hill efforts is that my wattage output exceeds what I would normally be able to average based on my FT so don’t let your FT hold you back. I would suggest to minimize the spikes, however, bump your upper effort up a bit, say 380 to 400+ and really work on picking up speed on the flatter sections (especially when they first start). If you pace yourself correctly your final sprint would be to maintain your power.
Is there a way to determine what the upper and lower wattage boundaries should be in a race like this (uphill, but varying grades between 3% and 8% - climb ~900 feet over 5k) based on my power zones?
Yes, but the math is sufficiently complex that I lack the motivation to either try to explain it or to run the numbers for you.
Is it better to go a bit harder on the steeper sections and a bit slower on the flatter sections?
Yes. As for how much harder/easier, see my answer above. I will say, though, that in evaluating your effort you might as well apply a 30 s rolling average to smooth the data, as any variation in power less than ~1/2 that duration isn’t all that important.
Why am I so much lower than everyone here yet ride over 23mph for Oly dist races and over 22 for HIM races? Are you guys riding that much faster than me?
I find it very difficult to put out over 250 for any length of time unless I’m climbing where I’m normally a little over 300 for several minutes
Why am I so much lower than everyone here yet ride over 23mph for Oly dist races and over 22 for HIM races? Are you guys riding that much faster than me?
I don’t know about others, but I am. Specifically, I average 27+ mph for a stand-alone 40 km TT, and used to always average 25+ mph during the cycling leg back when I was racing duathlons.
I find it very difficult to put out over 250 for any length of time unless I’m climbing where I’m normally a little over 300 for several minutes
Maybe I’m underestimating my FT
One way to find out: go do a ~1 h TT when you’re reasonably well-rested and don’t have swim beforehand or run afterwards.
(P.S. Given average aerodynamics, I would expect somebody with a functional threshold power of 250 W to be able to average ~25 mph in the above situation.)
I’m a cyclist. All I do is ride, and I never have to run afterward. I race on average 2x/week and put in about 300 training/racing miles per week. I think few triathletes ever go out and ride their bike hard with any regularity. Do a crit each week and you’ll understand just how hard hard is.
14 minutes? Damn, that’s fast, good work. How far off the top times is that? Is it true someone did it in 11 and change last year?
I do that ride once a week. My goal is to break 20 mins. So far, 21:30 is my best. (97kg, 45 yo, riding 5-8 hrs/wk, no racing, fwiw.)
The last steep bit above that final switchback just absolutely kills me. Every time.
Obviously, I can’t offer any advice, just de-lurking to say I’m enjoying the discussion. Any ideas what kind of specific training to do for efforts like that? I’ve been alternating just spinning up with good cadence as long as possible (currently 15-17 minutes at a time) with doing big gear intervals, 2 mins on, 2 off. Currently, it’s my only structured day of riding, the other days I just ride however I feel. I’m feeling a bit plateaued and stuck around 22 minutes. (I’ve been blaming it on the heat )
Yeah, Royal Street. The course record for this year (pro/1/2) is something like 12:44 (Norm Bryner). I think I have this year’s course record for the Cat 3 guys at 14:02.
As for training, I just try to ride my bike hard and often and race 1-2 times per week. Nothing really scientific up until I bought a power meter last week.
I think the overall key is to not go too hard up the initial grade - using a power meter last night I realized I was probably doing 500ish watts for the first minute or two in my previous races, and it was totally blowing me apart later in the climb. I kept it under 380 watts and I felt my effort was much more consistent.
like jhendric - I’ve mostly only cycled this year and have worked my ass off to get the power numbers up. At age 39 I don’t really see them as that high for a cyclist, especially power/weight ~ 4.2 to 4.4 (i’m 170lbs so its a lot of fast twitch).
Check and make sure you’re warm-up is really good, you can get 8sec there easily. One thing you haven’t mentioned is what is the length of the race, avg grade and your time, then you can get an idea of how long you can go at a supra-FTP pace.
I was taking a beating for that wasn’t I I really had to know.
I challenged some people in the last week to see there responses and stopped short of saying BS cuz I really didn’t know or maybe it was that I didn’t want to believe that I was that weak.
1 person was a really big guy
2 people didn’t respond back
2 were seasoned cyclists
AC stomped on me for it :P…Probably rightly so.
Can’t remember the other response off hand.
I know my power numbers at certain speeds and they are so much lower than everyone elses, that’s why I tried to get power/speed/weight numbers. Looking at reasons for it I could only come up with a few.
I am lighter than most others here that have about the same experience as me.
I am smaller than most others here at 5’4", ride a 48cm bike.
Rolling surface might be better, thus lower power needed for specific speeds.
Pedaling style might make a difference, but I haven’t been able to justify that.
Still looking for more reasons.
Since then I’ve read a couple of threads where the numbers are more reasonable like having a FT of 250-280watts @ 170lbs instead of someone just getting into cycling having a FT of 350 watts and is only 65Kg.
I don’t climb as well as gavnunns but I kill just about everyone else I train with (except you bernie) so I feel my power/weight isn’t as good as power/drag compared to training buddies.
Looks like your average was just about right. Do a Monod critical power type analysis of it and you’ll see that 320 W would have been right around your 14 minute power.
