I know that generically people will tend to look at 20 minute power as the benchmark test, but I am curious how power at Vo2 max relates to 20 minute power. I had a V02 test done last week- my power on the Velotron at VO2 max was 420 watts. I am using the lactate threshold turnpoint that the machine determined as hour-TT watts for now (325 watts).
Given that I have not done a 20 minute Coggan protocol yet, just curious as to how Vo2 power relates. If a 5k is run at about Vo2 max, wouldn’t a 10k bike TT be about the same (at Vo2 max power)? I ask because I have a 10k TT coming up, not sure what watts to shoot for.
i will tell you this, based onthe numbers you just supplied, if you try to do the TT at 420w, you will only make it about 2.5mi before your power drops substantially
my annecdotal numbers(only apply to my personal developmentally disabled training methods) 325w ftp=370-375w 10k, assumin 10k takes ~12min
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What protocol was used to test your VO2max? It is an important question, because there is no such thing as “power at VO2max”.
In other words, the moment you cross Critical Power (see http://physfarm.com/new/?page_id=511 ), your VO2 begins trending towards VO2max. So, let’s say your CP is 325W. If you ride at 400W, you will eventually max out. However, if you ride at 330W, you will also max out. It will just take longer. Thus, the relationship between “Power at VO2max” and your “threshold”, or CP (which often lies between 20-30 minute best power), is very much dependent on what kind of test was done, and how quickly they ramped up the power.
People often use “back of the napkin” guesstimates to come up with a number they call “power or pace at VO2max”, but it is important to understand the limitations.
I know that generically people will tend to look at 20 minute power as the benchmark test, but I am curious how power at Vo2 max relates to 20 minute power. I had a V02 test done last week- my power on the Velotron at VO2 max was 420 watts. I am using the lactate threshold turnpoint that the machine determined as hour-TT watts for now (325 watts).
Given that I have not done a 20 minute Coggan protocol yet, just curious as to how Vo2 power relates. If a 5k is run at about Vo2 max, wouldn’t a 10k bike TT be about the same (at Vo2 max power)? I ask because I have a 10k TT coming up, not sure what watts to shoot for.
Thanks!
75% of peak Vo2 power is a good starting point for a one hour TT, for 20 min the typical standard of 105% of FTP seams to work pretty well for most people. This also depends if you were seated or standing at the end of the test, think 75-80% of seated power at the ned of your test as your FTP wattage.
How you do on a 10 km TT will depend as much on CO2 production as O2 production, regardless of Vo2 max some people will have a higher anaerobic ratio at the shorter distances. Do you have CO2 data or RER data?
A guess might be 110-120% of FTP but I would suggest an all out 10 min effort on the trainer and look to that wattage as a guideline.
A lot of this will depend on the athlete and how they feel, a 10 km TT is as much a mental test as physical.
In terms of a 5km, usually your pace at VO2 max is about 1-1.5 km per hour faster than your 5km time. For example if you did 16 kph (10 miles an hour) at peak you should be able to hold 20 min for a 5km (think of this as a minimum standard). Speed at VO2 peak is closer to 6min or a mile repeat.
Again, these are guidelines. Every athlete is different and has good and bad days.
I know that generically people will tend to look at 20 minute power as the benchmark test, but I am curious how power at Vo2 max relates to 20 minute power. I had a V02 test done last week- my power on the Velotron at VO2 max was 420 watts. I am using the lactate threshold turnpoint that the machine determined as hour-TT watts for now (325 watts).
Given that I have not done a 20 minute Coggan protocol yet, just curious as to how Vo2 power relates. If a 5k is run at about Vo2 max, wouldn’t a 10k bike TT be about the same (at Vo2 max power)? I ask because I have a 10k TT coming up, not sure what watts to shoot for.
Thanks!
A mile run is closer to VO2 max than a 5k. Even if you are a very fast 5k runner. A 4k pursuit translates very well to VO2 max power on the bike 4-5min.
Also Phil will be able to give you more insight into your VO2 max power based on the protocol. Some do a 30watt/min ramp, some ramps are longer and some tests jump higher watts per ramp.
my annecdotal numbers(only apply to my personal developmentally disabled training methods) 325w ftp=370-375w 10k, assumin 10k takes ~12min
So basically about 115% of FTP? It’s been a few years since I’ve done a 10K TT, but that sounds about right to me. I’m thinking about doing an indoor 10K TT in a couple of weeks and based on recent workouts I’d guess I can do around 110-115% of FTP for that.
I may have overshot that one and listed what I would do now for 10k vs what I would do when i was at 325. I am comfortable at about 112%, but my aerobic component of that is weak relative to my anerobic component. trying to work on that now.
heading down to winfield on the 23rd or 24th? or wherever the matts event is, have never done one of those.
I know that generically people will tend to look at 20 minute power as the benchmark test, but I am curious how power at Vo2 max relates to 20 minute power. I had a V02 test done last week- my power on the Velotron at VO2 max was 420 watts. I am using the lactate threshold turnpoint that the machine determined as hour-TT watts for now (325 watts).
Given that I have not done a 20 minute Coggan protocol yet, just curious as to how Vo2 power relates. If a 5k is run at about Vo2 max, wouldn’t a 10k bike TT be about the same (at Vo2 max power)? I ask because I have a 10k TT coming up, not sure what watts to shoot for.
Thanks!
You should really just do a field test for your FTP. You lactate turn point usually falls below what your FTP wattage is. FTP is more consistent with MLSS.
Yeah, I’m thinking about heading down to Winfield. I’ve never done one of those either. SBR used to do 10K TTs several years ago so I did some of those. Now they’re part of a weekly TT series that some place in Canada coordinates and they do the WCRC twice a year. Since I haven’t done a 10K in a while I was thinking it might be “fun” to head down there and see how I do.
How would you pace a 10K? If you’re aiming for 112%, would you just go out at 112% and hope to hang on the whole time or start out a little below that and build into it? If I remember right, I just went for broke when I was doing those years ago, but I was also new to cycling then and didn’t know what I was doing. Now I’ve gotten pretty good at pacing longer efforts, but I’m debating how I would pace something as short as a 10K. When I do the Thursday practice TTs I typically just go out at what I think I can hold the whole time, but I’ve also blown up in several of those so that might not be the best plan.
in general I might start slightly lower, 5-10w, for a few minutes and then ramp up to what i thik I can do. Thursdays are all out from start with the attempt to not fade.(outdoors is more forgiving in that cadence can change quickly to adjust and the whole inertia thing) indoors are tougher for me to pace even from get go, mainly because i have to use a lower cadence inside to get desired power. why that makes me have to start easier, i dont know.
fri and sat should be fun this week. tried to ride a bit harder yesterday and lungs rejected the notion. after 15min at just under ftp, legs were not feelinig it, not enough o2 being supplied. my inhaler is out(waitng for doc to ok refill). horrible hacking ensued when i eased up at 30min. but hey, still managed 14 easy hours last week with this cold.
do you folks drink beer while riding last 4 hours, or is it the spectators, ie teammates doing that? trying to figure out if you run it like the lake monona run
A 20 minute test is an approximation for the 60 minute test, but the 5 minute test is really variable in terms of its relationship to 60 minute FTP. There was a good discussion this week on the wattage mailing list about how reliably we should apply the 95% of 20 minute test to determine FTP. Some of the observations that jumped out to me:
The 5 minute all out prior to the 20 minute protocol for some people ruins the 20 minute part of the test because they aren’t strong at VO2max or they haven’t trained well at that intensity.
For sprinters they may find that their FTP is really more of a 90% factor, while slow twitchers may be as high as 98% when doing a 20 minute test
The topic of extrapolating from shorter duration came up but it was almost uniformly disliked. If you do enough quality 20, 30 and 40 minute sessions you can get a pretty good idea where you stand if you were going to do 60 minutes.
Yeah, WCRC is pretty fun. There are usually some people who stay the whole 24 hours and some teams that are short on people and have riders that ride 3 or 4 times so some people are starting to look a little rough on Saturday. Plus there are always some people who have never done a TT and don’t ride with power and have no clue how to pace themselves and go out at 350+ watts and have some epic meltdowns, like the kid who threw up all over the wall last year. It’s entertaining.
I’ve never seen anyone drink while riding during this. They have a board where they post the miles for each team so the last few hours start to get pretty competitive. Plus 7 teams have been time trailing for 20+ hours at that point and it’s getting pretty hot and smelly in there. If you can hold down beer while time trialing in that environment, I’d be very impressed.
Your teammates will be drinking while they yell at you to go harder in the final hour.
Not to highjack the thread but highjacking it. Where in relation to power at VT1 & VT2 is FTP likely to be? When I was fit my VT1 was at 70% of power reached at V02 max and my VT2 was at 95%. I am guessing when trained my 1hr TT power should be higher than 75% of the power reached at v02?
Unfortunately while my VT2 as a proportion of V02 was one of the highest they had tested my VO2 max is not to great. So no Tour Wins for me on the horizon!
What protocol was used to test your VO2max? It is an important question, because there is no such thing as “power at VO2max”.
In other words, the moment you cross Critical Power (see http://physfarm.com/new/?page_id=511 ), your VO2 begins trending towards VO2max. So, let’s say your CP is 325W. If you ride at 400W, you will eventually max out. However, if you ride at 330W, you will also max out. It will just take longer. Thus, the relationship between “Power at VO2max” and your “threshold”, or CP (which often lies between 20-30 minute best power), is very much dependent on what kind of test was done, and how quickly they ramped up the power.
People often use “back of the napkin” guesstimates to come up with a number they call “power or pace at VO2max”, but it is important to understand the limitations.
Does all that make sense?
Cheers,
Phil
Thanks for this! Very insightful (which means it’ll be largely ignored by STers;-)).
Not long now! It hasn’t happened as quickly as the previous books since I’m concurrently writing my PhD thesis, a couple of papers, and playing doctor in Chicagoland!
