Just curious what running background you have and how many race marathons you ran before qualifying for Boston?
I ask because I’m trying to BQ and am trying to see how realistic my goal is of BQing for 2016. I’ve run my first marathon last November at 3:38 and I’m 31, so I’m wondering if perhaps I train hard I can hit 3:00 end of this year or early next. Or will it be more likely that I’ll age group up to the 35-39s and qualify under 3:10.
I’ve recently upped my mileage and am now doing 60-70miles a week to get a solid road base, but I need to work on speed as I’m averaging 8 min/mi and can only sustain high 6’s, low 7’s for 5 miles before I relax in to the 8’s again. The weird think is that I can do 10x800 yasso’s @ 10mph (6 min/mi) with only 2:15 rest on the treadmill, but I can’t get near that speed on the pavement. I’ve read how yasso’s you need to add 5-10, but I’m more like 30. I’m guessing its because of the gentleness of the treadmill, and the pancake flat surface, so should I up my speed to 11mph or shorten my rest? Any other tips on how to get faster?
From what you’ve provided, you’re a long way from hitting 3:00 this year. Might want to give yourself a longer planning horizon to knock 38 mins off your marathon time.
I got my BQ in my second marathon after 2.5 years of running with only a modest prior base of aerobic exercise. But, I just needed 3:30, which is a easier for a 45 year-old than is 3:00 for a 31 year-old.
Contrary to what Ike thinks, I don’t think it’s impossible to improve by that much, but you definitely need to make a big commitment to drop that much time. It just depends on how much you want it. I haven’t BQ but I was a competitive high school runner. From my experience, making big jumps in performance will require first and foremost upping the miles and building core strength and ankle/knee stability to ward off injury (I’d recommend looking up ‘oregon project stability routine’ on youtube). In addition to the miles, really do quality speedwork (sounds like this is a problem), and never forget to hit the weight room. Counter-intuitively, sprint training helps with distance running–we’re talking weights, plyo, circuits, serious strength/speed stuff. Sleep, stretching, (self-)massage, foam roller/trigger point stuff, and nutrition. Oh and ditch the treadmill unless it is so cold that it is legitimately dangerous to run outside–build that mental toughness. All in the details my friend. Just some tips–hope it helps.
Ran a 3:43 first marathon 10/11, ran 3:15 2/12, ran 3:05 2/13 for my BQ (running it this year). Before 3/11 I had never run more than 5 miles at a time. Run as much as your body can handle and just start running faster. I’m 40 years old.
I agree with BoyWithACoin, I definitely think it’s doable. When I ran my first marathon in May 2012 I had no running background, and was severely undertrained. I hobbled across the line in a little under 4:50. Beginning January 2013 I committed to training a little more seriously. I did S/B/R training until early September, followed by 6 weeks of focused run training. For those 6 weeks I would run 4 times a week, and rest the other days. In November 2013 I ran 3:02:56. I’m a little younger than you, but I think it’s completely within your reach. For me the most important factors were staying healthy, being consistent with workouts (missing 1 workout is okay, but don’t make a habit of it), and proper recovery. If you can do that you can definitely do it.
First, Yasso’s 800s are meaningless in relation to marathon fitness without a solid marathon training base under you. Second, your treadmill needs to be set at at least 1% incline for anything close to a real road comparison. Third, what does your 60+ mile week look like? You may need some more refined structure to your weekly schedule to build running endurance. Lastly, you can BQ if you have any semblance of endurance ability. Just put in the miles.
Do you do shorter races, and if so, what are your PRs at, say, 10K and half marathon? Those are good predictors of what your marathon potential is. Also, any idea what your run cadence is?
Thanks everyone for sharing, gives me hope but as others mentioned its a tall order. Definitely will increase the incline as what you guys mention makes sense. Probably changes my biomechanics too.
Ran a 1:39 half in October. Haven’t raced anything under a half. The SF first half was my first and it took me 1:54.
Miles This week (long week for me):
Sunday - 17 miles to mt diablo summit -4k climb
Monday - rest
Tuesday am - 7.5 miles flat, pm - 100 floor stairclimber and 40 min lifting
Wednesday - 8 miles hill work 1.2k climb
Thursday - 9.5 miles flat
Friday am - speed work 8 miles 10x yasso 800, pm - 1 hour lifting and 4 miles run home
Today- long day - 19 miles
This is my long run week, so next will have a few days switched with swimming or cycling, but hope to maintain about 50-70 miles/week ongoing.
Like most of my BQ acquaintances, I moved up from shorter distances, so already had a base of speed. I would need a lot more data to venture an informed recommendation, but hey, this is Slowtwitch.
Your mileage is high enough - maybe too high (disclaimer: I’m a fan of lower volume and higher quality) in that you seem to be locked into 8-minute pace. For what you’re aiming for, 7:00 pace has got to be pretty comfortable. There’s another thread going on sub-3 marathoning - the bottom line is you’re looking at being able to run around 38 for 10K and 1:24 for a half marathon. At a minimum.
You didn’t say how long you’ve been doing your current 60+ mpw program, but if your base is solid, maybe you should take down the mileage and ramp up the intensity. Go race some 5Ks and 10Ks and see what you can do. One thing to work on is your cadence - the ability to sustain “fast feet” will take you a long way.
Ditch the treadmill and run your repeats at the track. Try 1-mile repeats instead of 800s. 8 x 1 mile @ 6:00-6:10 with a 400m jog is a much better predictor of 3:00 marathon potential than 800s.
Do you do your runs solo? I always found that it helps to train as much as possible with faster runners. Even your easy runs end up being at a faster pace, which is what your body needs to get used to if you want to improve by as much as you do.
I was in a similar boat, with my first marathon being a 3:43. The tricky part of a race that long is that you may be able to make huge gains just by gaining experience at the distance and by running a smarter race.
My progression:
2/12 - 3:43
5/12 - 3:21
7/12 - 3:09
Then I stagnated by serial racing a marathon every 3 weeks…whoops. My point stands that your 3:38 may or may not be a good indicator of your current marathon fitness. I would encourage you to try another HM…it will give you a decent idea of your current marathon fitness without the recovery/injury of the full marathon.
(BTW…I started this year fresh and really trained for a July marathon and BQ’ed with a 3:03…16 whole seconds to spare due to the crazy cutoff. I’d bet that next year will be easier to get into than this one, and so I doubt you’d need a sub-3. But who knows?)
As for training, ditch the yassos. It seems like you are running the bulk of your miles too slow (thus hard to be comfy at a 7 minute pace) or too fast - yassos - that it isn’t translating well.
Also, think about your weight. Jack Daniels says a pound is worth about 30 seconds on your marathon time. If you’ve got 20 pounds to spare (10 minutes) then you are almost a third there.
I ran D-I cross country and track and ran my first marathon in my second year of graduate school. I ran 3:09 (I’m a woman) in my first marathon and qualified for the 100th Boston Marathon. I ran several marathons after that before I got into triathlon and ran quite a few between 3:00-3:15, but never got under 3 hours. Based on my shorter distance times I “should” have been able to run under 2:50, which at that time would have qualified me for the Olympic Trials and was my goal, but even at my best marathon I was still 10 minutes away. At the time I didn’t think a 20 minute improvement over 26.2 miles would be that insurmountable, but for me it definitely was! It’s a lot of time if you are already at the high end of your fitness abilities. Unless you really aren’t any where close to your potential yet I think a 38+ minute improvement is a LOT of time to try to take off, especially in just a year. So before I would say if it’s possible or not I’d say it depends … did you run 3:38 after being a coach potato and training for just a couple months? Or did you run 3:38 after a long time of running experience and when you were really fit?
I would also suggest doing your speed work on the road or track. I don’t trust the pace on a treadmill, even at 1% incline. Even using a garmin footpad I don’t trust the pace I’m seeing on the treadmill as accurate. The treadmill is a great tool, but I wouldn’t rely on it for all speed work. Also, include some longer tempo runs and 10Ks and half marathons to your marathon training plan. Can you run a half marathon at 3:00 marathon pace? You better be able to run a half marathon comfortably under 1:30 to even think about running a 3:00 marathon.
So I do think you can improve significantly, going to 3 hrs in one year is asking for a lot especially since you don’t have the speed yet. For me, I discovered I could run OK on my own, but when I got really serious in 1996, then I went to another level. Lots of track speed work with a lot of faster people than me.
I BQ’d in my first marathon (3:09), but that was the first year of the new standards, and I didn’t get in. I ended up running Boston as a charity runner, and ran a 3:12 in the 90 degree year (2012). At the end of the 2012 season I had six weeks between my last tri and a marathon, where I ran 3:04 to qualify for Boston in 2014. My goal at Boston is around 2:55 (based on a 1:20 half, that seems reasonable).
As this thread developed, you started to get some good advice from some really good runners. Here are my takeaways from it so far.
You need to build a solid weekly schedule that focuses on improving your endurance and pace. I would recommend you read the BarryP threads to get an understanding of hard vs. easy days. This will help you stay healthy as you build your training base.
In a nutshell your week should include 2 solid workouts plus a long run. All your other runs should be at your easy pace. Your workouts can be a rotation of 2 x 20:00 tempo pace runs, progression runs, marathon pace runs and mile repeats. Your long run should be done at a pace between your easy pace and your marathon pace.
You should also spend the first 9 months of this year trying to improve your 10k and half marathon times. From there, you can easily transition to a focused marathon build.
As this thread developed, you started to get some good advice from some really good runners. Here are my takeaways from it so far.
You need to build a solid weekly schedule that focuses on improving your endurance and pace. I would recommend you read the BarryP threads to get an understanding of hard vs. easy days. This will help you stay healthy as you build your training base.
In a nutshell your week should include 2 solid workouts plus a long run. All your other runs should be at your easy pace. Your workouts can be a rotation of 2 x 20:00 tempo pace runs, progression runs, marathon pace runs and mile repeats. Your long run should be done at a pace between your easy pace and your marathon pace.
You should also spend the first 9 months of this year trying to improve your 10k and half marathon times. From there, you can easily transition to a focused marathon build.
This is a great post. IMO, at 60-70 miles per week you are already running enough volume (in contrast to most who ask this question) to BQ. You now need to work on making that volume faster/higher quality.
FWIW I BQd in my second marathon and maybe had two weeks in my training cycle where I ran more than 60 miles.
<08/2010: Ass + Couch married for 25+ years
08/2010: Ass + Couch divorced, bought a Cervelo S2 to get un-fat
09/2010: First tentative steps at training for a triathlon (HIM)
05/2011: First athletic endeavor in a 44y9mo old life (1/2 Mary in 1:43)
07/2011: First HIM (~5:40) and the event that hooked me on the sport!
05/2012: First Open Marathon (Vancouver in 3:55 - classic pacing rookie mistakes)
08/2012: First IM (IMMT in 11:18)
10/2012: 2nd Open Marathon (Toronto Waterfront 3:29)
05/2013: 3rd Open Marathon (Vancouver in 3:21) and…BQ by ~4 min!
I trained ~10 hrs/wk S/B/R on average with a very supportive wife (v1.0 of 22+ years), three kids, 1 full-time airline career and 1 part-time military ‘hobby’ job. I’m not a born athlete, not blessed with genes of steel or anything special. My vDot numbers are decidedly average. My road from ‘sucks ass’ to success was a simple formula: I just set a few pie-in-the-sky goals, committed to moving almost every day and eating better, lost a boat load of displacement during the voyage and never gave up when things went off the rails occasionally (injuries and other setbacks).
As others have noted, you can make huge improvements when you first start running.
When I was 36, I “ran” my first marathon by doing almost all of my “training” on a bike: 4:10 and swore I would never do it again
When I was 37, I mixed some running in with my training: 3:42
When I was 38, more running than biking: 3:11 - BQ with 4 minutes to spare.
But eventually everyone plateaus - since my first BQ, I have run more than 10 additional BQ times - but have only taken 18 seconds off that first 3:11.
