I’m considering a trail race taking place about 6 weeks after my Ironman race in 2 weeks. I’m a total noob with trail running in general, but it seems like fun and my thinking is I have the fitness from Ironman training to enjoy myself. I have some specific questions for those in the know:
There’s a 13.1 race, and a 50k race. Am I an idiot to consider the 50k and should stick to 13.1 for my first? My goal in any case would just be to enjoy the experience, finishing time is irrelevant. Northface (host of the race) classifies it as “2 out of 5 stars” for difficulty, and says it’s “ideal for elite speedsters or those taking their first strides”. So, nothing too crazy here, it seems.
Probably important to note that I’ve done zero training exclusively for this race, which includes running on trails of any kinds. It’s been all Ironman all the time. So I wouldn’t get trail-specific until after Ironman.
What’s a decent trail running shoe? If it matters, on asphalt I train on Kayano’s, and prefer to race on Newton’s or Nike Lunar Trainers.
How does hydration/nutrition work? Is it SOP to carry a Camelback with water? Gatorade? Infinit (might be a bit foamy with all the bouncing around). Is Camelback far and away better than a Target knock-off? Or do guys carry a bottle in-hand (seems a hassle). Don’t typically prefer Fuel Belt for road running, but is it something people use for trails?
What’s the best sock? I prefer running in Under Armour socks, they’re not too thick, not too thin, and work well for me on asphalt. Is there some awesome sock out there for the rigors of trail running, or am I okay to go with what I know?
Training-wise, if I were to do the 50k, would it be reasonable to treat the Ironman/marathon as my “long run”, recover sensibly for 3 weeks, then plug in trail specific running, particularly a few long runs of 15-20 miles? Or not? Or what?
Should every run be on trails, or am I okay to train on the road, but try to focus my key, long runs on trails?
What else should I know/didn’t I ask/would I regret?
Just my two cents here. I’ve only done one trail race and it was about 12 miles, on a semi-tough course with a couple thousand feet of vertical. I was in the middle of my build for back-to-back 70.3’s here in SoCal. I was 4 weeks out from those races. I just used my regular running shoes and for hydration, though they had one water station, I used a hydration backback and a couple of gels. That was perfect for me. It was in the winter, so it wasn’t hot really.
I’d probably tell you to go for the 13.1 to see how you like it and learn more about the gear that people use and strategies for the longer stuff (50k) before you go that route, but I think you could definitely complete the course. Just check out the course description and train in similar conditions/terrain.
Good luck!
I do very little trail running. Each time I go I get some small tendon injury. I would definitely split some runs on the trails. Ex. If you are doing an 8 mile run do maybe 2 miles on the trail and 6 on the road.
There’s a lot more gripping and ankle strength required that you don’t get from swim/bike/road running.
I’m a relative trail newbie, but here’s my take. I did the half last year. I loved it, even though my fitness level was poor. I plan on coming back this year after doing IM-Moo in 2 weeks. It’s a different crowd than at most run races.
The Kettle Moraine isn’t mountain-hard, but there are some big hills. Last year it rained 24hrs straight before the race (no joke), which made it tough to see all the rocks in the trail. They were covered with leaves, and by the time I got there, with mud as well. I did all my training in the hills of the Kettle mainly because it’s a beautiful time of year to run through there. You could probably get away with a few road runs too, but it took awhile for the feet/joints to get used to the uneven surfaces of nature.
As for gear - I wore a camelbak. There was a wide range of hydration strategies - some had those hip things, some with 2 bottles on the wrists. There is one aid station on the half course and one “food” station with bananas and some other things. I wore some longer REI hiking socks because it was so cold/wet and I didn’t know any better. It worked fine. I have some NB trail shoes that worked fine - you don’t need the hard-cord toe box protection like you’d want for a Rocky Mountain run, but more than you’d get from a normal pair of running shoes. This isn’t a race for minimal shoes because there’s plenty to smack your foot on.
I’m no trail expert, but I’d think that 6 weeks after an Ironman might be a bit soon for your first trail 50k. Why not give your body some time to recover, and do the half to see if trail running is for you?
Let me preface by saying I’m a slow runner. Let me further preface by saying I’ve done 2 50K trail races and only one 1/2 iron. One of the 50K trail races was 3 weeks after my first 1/2 iron, so this might or might not give you some insight.
Training: Yes, recover sensibly for those 3 weeks. During your recovery, start doing runs of 1hr or more on trail. Yes, you have to pay more attention to where you put your feet than on the street and it uses more balancing muscles and core muscles, however it’s easier on your joints and your body will recover better from a pounding run on trail than it would from the road. Doing those longer runs on trail will start familiarizing your legs with the difference. A friend of mine uses trail running for all her distance work as part of her ironman training, btw.
Hydration: As you extend the run distance on trail leading up to the race, experiment with bringing your own nutrition and hydration. I use infinit on any run of 2.5hrs or more. I use a camelback, I know several folk who use race belts to carry the little bottles of water. They use less water than I do. I guess I sweat more. You’ll want to dial it in because the less you have to stop to refill your hydration and nutrition, the better your time and less chance of your legs getting cold. When doing my 50K trails, I keep my station stops as short as possible. Both had them nicely spaced about 6 miles apart, but given my druthers I used them to supplement what I had by grabbing some cold water to sip or splash on my face. If you want to bite off the 50K, remember what works for you on the marathon at the end of that ironman and remember to watch your electrolytes. What you carry though is up to you, and don’t assume there will be those stations ever 6 miles. Each race is different, and some 50K races only have 4 stops total. Target knock-off is just as good. The benefit to camelback, more liquid = fewer stops and easier to get a drink. Fuel belt benefit is less weight, no shoulder ache.
Socks. Use what you’re used to. Seriously, if they wick moisture and don’t chafe, you’re golden.
Shoes. Go try on a few pairs. There shouldn’t be cushion to them, traction is far more important. I use Brooks for trail and Aesics for street. My trail shoes have no gait correction, my Aesics are standard stability shoes. If I run trails in the Aesics, I twist my ankles. You want a roomy toebox and I discovered speed laces don’t work for me on trail shoes. They let too many pebbles in and don’t the shoe stable on my feet in rough country and on a good downhill speed laces meant my toes were banging into the end of the toebox again (lost a few toenails that way, my feet will never win me a beauty contest). My first pair of trail shoes were too tight in the toebox and I suffered many black toenails and blisters from them. Beware the tighter toebox. As previously said though, you shouldn’t need blocky steel-toed hiking boots.
Trail races are a breed apart. You’ll find that the people who do 50k races are incredibly friendly and helpful. Do Not Race With An IPOD. Seriously. Just Don’t. You’ll not hear the dude behind you wanting past on the singletrack trail and BOY is that annoying as all get-out. Remember to watch for wildlife, including snakes. Just jump high over them. Expect your feet to get wet. That’s one of the reasons for trail shoes. They dry faster. No, really. They do. Do not try to race up a steep hill in the first 15 miles. If it’s steep and going to blow you anaerobic, speed walk it and save the strength for distance.
Last thing? Trail races and ultra-distance trail races are the most fun you can have on two feet. Seriously. I like it enough I’m considering trying to do a 50 miler next year, and I’m FAR from competitive in my speed/standings during these things. Run it for fun, run it for the experience and don’t worry about your time or pace. If you feel flat and don’t know if you can finish, tell yourself you can walk till you get pulled for time, cuz the funny thing is you might feel like you’re done halfway through, walk 3 miles and suddenly feel great again and finish like you’d never slowed down.
In general, at the trail races I’ve done the closer a person is to the front, the less shoe they are wearing. Flats for the top 10, trainers for FOP, all the way to the 16 ounce monstrosities later on. That could be selected due to biomechanics/something else, but I think it’s safe in almost every trail race to run in what you would for a race of equivalent distance on roads.
Based on your post, it appears that we may have similar race schedules. I am doing IMWI in two weeks (my second IMWI) and then the NFEC in the Kettle on Oct 24. Last year at the NFEC (same time frame between IMWI and the trail run), I did the half mary but am planning on running the 50k this year. But between 2008 IMWI and 2009 IMWI, I will have 2 other 50K and a 50 Miler completed. I wanted to do the 50 miler but coach said no so I listened. But since my 2008 experience is similar to where you are, here are my take on your questions.
The NFEC half mary was my first ever long trail race. I had done a couple of the local 5-8K races but nothing really long on the trails but training runs. And those training runs were limited to a couple of loops at waterfall glen and palos. The Madison (really Milwaukee area) NFEC not a challenging course. Most of the 13.1 and 50K course are on wide, dirt trails that are uses for cross country skiing in the winter and hiking when not covered in snow. It is not single track. There is some elevation but nothing too long or too steep. The trails are not very technical and you an easily run the whole course (aka no walking due to stream crossings, steep slopes, dangerous rocks or tree roots, etc).
I didn’t train specifically for the race last year. Neither did a friend of mine who completed IMWI and then the 50k last year. We both just took a bit of downtime after IMWI and then went to NFEC looking to have fun. I did a couple of semi-long runs (about 1.5-2 hours) but nothing to crazy or anything that resembles an half mary training plan. I know my friend did even less running than me as he pulled a muscle in his back and it severely limited his running for a while. You will have a ton of fitness from IMWI (assuming you trained for that) so I would think you would have the fitness to get it done and have it not hurt to bad. I really think I may have run like 6 times between IMWI and NF (I had surgery that kept me from running for 2 weeks the week after IMWI).
The NFEC trails are suitable for your normal road shoes - either the kayanos or the newtons. I raced in trail shoes cause I had them but many other members of my ultrarunners club regularally train on these trails in their road shoes and 3 wear Newtons. I would wear what is comfortable to you. FWIW, my trail shoes are salomons and inov-8.
I believe the aid stations are about 4 or so miles apart. I commonly run trail on trails with my Nathan pack so I wore it in the race. Other people use hand held bottles or fuel belts. On the trails you will see more packs and handhelds than fuel belts though. I would go to REI and try some packs. I have 3 (camelback, nathan, and some other brand I can’t think of right now) and love my Nathan. It moves a lot less than any of the others I have tried. And from a quick scan of what most of my ultra friends use, I would have to say Nathan packs would win. I usually run a dilute gatorade in my pack.
If you think you can get through a half with aid evey 4 or so miles then you won’t need anything. The aid stations will have everything you can imagine and then some. Ultra aid stations but the IM buffet to shame – candy, chips, gels, sports drink, cookies, peanut butter, coke, etc. Salty/sweet/savory it is all there.
I wear the same socks on the trails as I do on the roads – usually smartwool. So I wouldn’t have any idea if your socks wouldn’t work on the trails. But I do wear gaiters on the trails to help keep rocks out.
You can see above about how I trained last year. This year, I will likely rest for a couple of weeks and then get some volume. I may run a 20 miler, I may not. It will all depend on how I feel. My ultra friends will likely convince me to run long with them but I am going by feel. I am not planning a PR at NF so what happens, happens.
I like to run on trails so I do it often. My only recommendation would be to get some runs on a hilly course cause there are some hills at NF. If your in Chicagoland, some of us run at Palos and Waterfall Glen on the weekends and you can always join us.
This was probably way more info that you wanted but hey, I am trying to procrastinate from work. Let me know if you have any specific questions.
There are also a ton of trail races at Rock Cut State Park and in the region
Fri., Sept. 18, 2009
Rock Cut Coyote 10K Nite Run
Rock Cut State Park Information / Entry Form
Larry Swanson 815-877-8164 larrydswanson69@comcast.net 24 Sat., Sept. 19, 2009
Rock Cut HOBO 25K Trail Run
Rock Cut State Park Information / Entry Form
Larry Swanson 815-877-8164 larrydswanson69@comcast.net 25 Sun., Sept. 20, 2009
Rock Cut HOBO 50K Trail Ultra
Rock Cut State Park Information / Entry Form
Larry Swanson 815-877-8164 larrydswanson69@comcast.net 26 Sat., Sept. 26, 2009
Fall Trail 4mi Run
Caledonia, IL Kinnikinnick Park Information
Norm Yarger 544-0879 nlyarger@yahoo.com
I don’t know what kind of trail races you run, but your observation is not really indicative of what you’d see at most of the popular trail runs in the mid-atlantic area. In particular, those run by Ron Horn on and around Mt. Penn near Reading, PA (Half Wit, Double Trouble, and many more). These routes feature extended sections with nasty angular rocks to run on, as well as long, treacherous descents in which traction can be key. It is true that the lead runners wear much lighter weight trail shoes than the slower runners, but they do not wear road racing flats. The one exception that I can think is the year that the Chilly Cheeks (mid-January) was all covered in snow and ice, and the lead runner wore spikes and set a new course record. Of course, that wasn’t really “the course” that most people run that race on.
I’ve heard some nasty (in a good way) things about Half-Wit. The only Pretzel City Sports race I’ve done is the Wissahickon Trail Classic this year which is pretty bad in terms of rocks and roots. I was in Brooks T5s as was the winner, and third was in Lunaracers. So top 3 in flats there; granted, that may totally be due to the shorter distance (and I did twist my ankle…so might want to rethink that strategy if it is muddy again next year!). And I have a pretty small sample size with Ron Horn’s races.
Come to think of it, I’m probably biased towards shorter distances than the OP has in mind, so you are almost certainly right. Sorry about that. However, I stand by my statement! CAN’T CHANGE HORSES MIDSTREAM!
What shoes do you prefer for trails? Do you find the extra support worth the extra weight?
What shoes do you prefer for trails? Do you find the extra support worth the extra weight?
I have very wide feet, super-flat arches, and i pronate heavily. i’ve ended up in some heavy, heavy vasques that (a) appear after 3 years to be basically indestructable (b) provide massive amounts of forefoot and toebox protection (excellent for the ron horn races) (c) are nice and wide. i use some oven-molded “orthotic” insoles in them to beef up the arch support.
however, i do train on the back trails in the wissahickon (4-5 times a week) in my road shoes too, if its not too muddy, and they work there without many problems (brooks beast at present). if i wore lighter shoes for the road, i’d probably wear them in the wissahickon too (i have brooks ST4’s for track work and 5k races, but they are not candidates for this purpose - no traction). i wouldn’t do any mt. penn races in any road shoes i’ve ever worn.
the half wit is awesome. i missed it this year due to a calf injury. you have to do that race sometime - crazy, absurd, ridiculous, hard and worth every step on broken rock and what have you …
I can’t tell you much about trail racing. I did the 50 miler there last year as a “run” (I averaged 11:10 miles, so hardly a run) but I had an amazing time. Im doing IMMOO in two weeks, and thought briefly last week about throwing down the 50 miler again this year, but I think I’m going to take training more seriously.
as per your specific questions
the course had some big hills, but nothing “technical” like steep rocky climbs or anything like that.
I did most of my training on trails, but I don’t think it really matters too much as long as you do a long run or two.
I ran on asics gt2130s. worked out fine.
I wore a hydration belt type dohickey that held a single .5 l bottle, worked fine. If i were doing a half I probably wouldn’t bother tho.
I ran in some nike shox sox. i switched half way through to some north face socks they handed out in the pre race bag.
I dont have much input on specific training. I maxed out at 22 miles at the end of July before taking 10 weeks off due to injury. you probably want to go faster than me tho. My experience was amazing and I can’t wait to do another one. definitely top of the list on racing experiences. have fun!
I pretty much only run on trails these days. I think just the opposite of a lot of others and find trail running is a lot less stressful on old, tired, worn out ankles,knees,hips. That is my opinion.
Shoes. Depends Some rock filled hard trails, I use a heavy support “trail shoe” I seem to go toward Adidas, or on softer dirt trails I just use running shoes with a little tread on the sole. I seem to use more Nikes. I probably used exclusive Nike and Reebok shoes for 20 years on the road. So I would think use your shoe with the most tread that you like to start.You will see all kinds of shoes from boots to flats in most races.
Is the course wet? Soaking wet shoes& socks need some consideration.
Not too sure if you are ready for a 50k post Ironman, but you need to answer that.
I don’t like the Camelback on the run. I prefer a two bottle belt system with the bottles on the side. Camelback seem to chap me on the armholes. Bottles on the back seem to bounce more than on the side.
As far as shoes: I run in asics Trail Attack WRs…they are great for regular winter running, and get me through a fairly hilly decently challenging trail half marathon in the spring, and handle my regular trail running easily (nothing TOO technical).
i chose them when I was looking for trail shoes b/c they are fairly lightweight, but still durable enough for a trail race in the GA mtns or a run through the snow and ice when it’s -25 below in MN.
Do the 50k…you won’t regret it. Trail running is a blast and a different world from IM.
You will be fine with a few runs in the dirt to get the feel for trail running. Depending on the difficulty of the course it can take some getting used to and you will be sore in places that you aren’t normally.
As far as shoes go it…it is personal. I have been running in Soloman XT-Wings and have loved them. I ran a 148 mile stage race in them and they worked for me YMMV…socks I went with Injinji and had basically zero blisters.
Hydration depends on the course…if it is a flat fast kind of day I will go with a handheld but if it goes up and down a lot I wear a nathon hydration pack because I like to have my hands free. A fuel belt would work fine.
IMO you don’t need to to every run on trails. In my experience it is better to do about 60% road…it keeps my stride length and helps keep me injury free.
If you use the IM marathon as you long run you will be fine and getting a 15 and a 20 in after you should be good. I think I did my first 50k on 18 miles for a long WEEK…not smart but hey I did go 6 hours on a tough course
This reads like me in June this year. I just finished IM Cda and I was looking for other things to do. I signed up for a 16k mountain half marathon in the foothills of the Rockies near where I live. I trained on and off not really what you would call religiously and I left my HRM in the bag.
I did the race on Saturday and it was great. Here’s what I took from the day;
Your feet will hurt no matter what you do
You don’t need a camel back even though it was 25 degrees. There was an aid station at 8km which was fine.
I love having a creek at the finish line to lay in until your legs go numb
I’ll be doing some more next year.
I’m considering a trail race taking place about 6 weeks after my Ironman race in 2 weeks. I’m a total noob with trail running in general, but it seems like fun and my thinking is I have the fitness from Ironman training to enjoy myself. I have some specific questions for those in the know:
There’s a 13.1 race, and a 50k race. Am I an idiot to consider the 50k and should stick to 13.1 for my first? My goal in any case would just be to enjoy the experience, finishing time is irrelevant. Northface (host of the race) classifies it as “2 out of 5 stars” for difficulty, and says it’s “ideal for elite speedsters or those taking their first strides”. So, nothing too crazy here, it seems.
Probably important to note that I’ve done zero training exclusively for this race, which includes running on trails of any kinds. It’s been all Ironman all the time. So I wouldn’t get trail-specific until after Ironman.
What’s a decent trail running shoe? If it matters, on asphalt I train on Kayano’s, and prefer to race on Newton’s or Nike Lunar Trainers.
How does hydration/nutrition work? Is it SOP to carry a Camelback with water? Gatorade? Infinit (might be a bit foamy with all the bouncing around). Is Camelback far and away better than a Target knock-off? Or do guys carry a bottle in-hand (seems a hassle). Don’t typically prefer Fuel Belt for road running, but is it something people use for trails?
What’s the best sock? I prefer running in Under Armour socks, they’re not too thick, not too thin, and work well for me on asphalt. Is there some awesome sock out there for the rigors of trail running, or am I okay to go with what I know?
Training-wise, if I were to do the 50k, would it be reasonable to treat the Ironman/marathon as my “long run”, recover sensibly for 3 weeks, then plug in trail specific running, particularly a few long runs of 15-20 miles? Or not? Or what?
Should every run be on trails, or am I okay to train on the road, but try to focus my key, long runs on trails?
What else should I know/didn’t I ask/would I regret?
Thanks in advance for your input and insight -
Wow, I am completely suprised how many of us did IMOO and then did the Endurance Challenge last year. I did the Half like many others have stated. I relied heavily on my IM training and base to just get me through the race. I run the KM (Northern and Southern Units) a bunch and really, really enjoy it. As to your questions:
I like Asics Trail shoes
You can use a Camelback, but there are aid stations. Depends if you are doing 50K or the Half I guess. I carried nothing on the Half.
I like Smartwool socks especially since you may get wet.
I don’t think it is highly important to do a bunch of trail running. Once a week should suffice. It is a different feel and some of the trails are technical.
It was my experience (and I was advised by two other coaches) to not think about the 50k after IM. You might feel like it now, but your body may not after IM. There may be some lag in your “unwinding”. Gordo talks about this in some of his stuff. Your IM training may not catch up to you until 3 weeks after IM. If you want to recover well, stay healthy and enjoy the sport I suggest doing the Half. It will still provide a challenge I promise.
As to the Endurance Challenge-get ready for a let down as far as the event goes. The course is great, but their after “party” was a bust. I pretty much finished the race and left. I wrote an email telling them how disappointing it was. Hopefully they make some changes.
If you do the KM Endurance Challenge I will either be running or at an aid station with my wife. See you there.
This has been just excellent information everybody - thanks for your advice. I think I’ll plan for the 13.1, see how it goes. It’s been great hearing about the preferred gear and everybody’s experiences, and I’m excited to get into this a bit. Thanks again.
