here’s my question to those of you who know what you’re talking about on this subject.
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin?
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick).
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out.
Hmm…I’ll take a stab at this, though I am not an expert on lower limb biomechanics as it relates to swimming:
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin? Fast kicker, no. But maybe less efficient in the water than someone with more ankle mobility. I would think the large movers (glutes, quads, hamstrings) are going to have the most effect on the rate a swimmer would kick.
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick). Possibly. Though in my experience I’ve seen few if any people that have issues with plantar flexion range of motion. The issue is always limited dorsiflexion, which I don’t think would have much effect on kicking mechanics. The foot is going to stay in relative plantar flexion the entire time.
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out. Depends on what makes the bad kicker bad at kicking :-). If bad kicking is related to poor ankle mobility, then working on that would be the priority on the path to becoming a good kicker. Specifically releasing the ankle joint itself as well as anterior tibialis, extensor digitorum longus and extensor hallucis longus (if the problem was an inability to plantarflex). I would also think strengthening the prime movers would help with kicking power since the leg is going to function like a whip during a kick with the movement transferring down the kinetic chain until it gets to the foot, propelling the swimmer forward. If its poor form, i.e. from inexperience, out of shape, etc. then obviously some coaching will help a lot.
That’s all I’ve got. Again, not a swimming technician, coach or anyone that really knows what I’m talking about. Just trying to think things through in my head from a biomechanical standpoint.
here’s my question to those of you who know what you’re talking about on this subject.
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin?
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick).
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out.
I don’t pretend to know what I’m talking about, but as an avid student of the sport and a lifelong swimmer, I will give it a go:
Depends on your definition of “fast,” but overall, yes. Limited ankle flexion is a significant barrier to an effective kick.
I would say that swimmers with limited ankle flexion gravitate toward a stronger pull to compensate for a weak kick. This may mean swimming with a two-beat kick or a slight scissor kick or some variant thereof - whatever it takes to promote good body position. Knee flexion while kicking is a bad idea all around, but I will admit that as a bad kicker with terrible ankle flexibility, I do use my knees during kick sets. I had no idea this was even happening until two different coaches pointed it out to me last month (ie I thought I was kicking with proper technique).
Honestly, I think it’s an uphill battle for those of us with a pathetic kick, but flexibility exercises can help - not just ankles but hips, back, etc. Yoga is popular among elite swimmers. We’ve also seen top swimmers with back injuries (ie Missy Franklin) lose some crucial flexibility when it comes to underwaters off the turn - which suggests, again, that there is much more to a powerful kick than just ankle flexibility. Kick sets are also a must, at least to some degree.
here’s my question to those of you who know what you’re talking about on this subject.
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin?
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick).
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out.
Depends on how limited you are talking about. There are a couple of parts, the first is having adequate toe pointing ability, and the second is beings able to relax while you point them.
I’m going to say no, because you want adequate, but not excessive, knee flexion regardless of the amount of ankle flexion you have. Having too much flexion will just cause you to kick more air or increase drag as your knees drop. There’s a limited amount of vertical space that you have to kick in,
Kick a lot! It really depends on what is keeping the swimmer back. If it is power and coordination, ten just plain kicking a lot will help. If there are joint mobility issues, then gotta work on those too. I honestly don’t know how much you can do to improve this, it seems to be one of those things that you either got or you don’t.
3b). There’s a progression which I think swimmers need to go through. The instinct for newer less experienced swimmers is to do a bicycle kick, which is characterized by the thigh and lower leg moving in opposite directions. It’s a natural motion, it’s how we walk, ride a bike etc. But it’s wrong in swimming. First learn to kick with the legs straight and minimal knee bend, then when you’ve got that down, work on getting the wave action gang from the hip down to the ankle, whereby the thighs remain nearly parallel for the whole kick cycle and the lower leg has quite a bit of bend, but up behind the swimmer rather than hanging down below.
3c). Learn to kick compactly. Common error in newer swimmers is to make the kicks too big, again, increasing drag.
Oh, and keeping your feet in a pigeon toed stance while you kick seems to help. My big toes usually hit each other at some point.
here’s my question to those of you who know what you’re talking about on this subject.
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin?
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick).
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out.
I don’t pretend to know what I’m talking about, but as an avid student of the sport and a lifelong swimmer, I will give it a go:
Depends on your definition of “fast,” but overall, yes. Limited ankle flexion is a significant barrier to an effective kick.
I would say that swimmers with limited ankle flexion gravitate toward a stronger pull to compensate for a weak kick. This may mean swimming with a two-beat kick or a slight scissor kick or some variant thereof - whatever it takes to promote good body position. Knee flexion while kicking is a bad idea all around, but I will admit that as a bad kicker with terrible ankle flexibility, I do use my knees during kick sets. I had no idea this was even happening until two different coaches pointed it out to me last month (ie I thought I was kicking with proper technique).
Honestly, I think it’s an uphill battle for those of us with a pathetic kick, but flexibility exercises can help - not just ankles but hips, back, etc. Yoga is popular among elite swimmers. We’ve also seen top swimmers with back injuries (ie Missy Franklin) lose some crucial flexibility when it comes to underwaters off the turn - which suggests, again, that there is much more to a powerful kick than just ankle flexibility. Kick sets are also a must, at least to some degree.
here’s my question to those of you who know what you’re talking about on this subject.
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin?
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick).
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out.
Depends on how limited you are talking about. There are a couple of parts, the first is having adequate toe pointing ability, and the second is beings able to relax while you point them.
I’m going to say no, because you want adequate, but not excessive, knee flexion regardless of the amount of ankle flexion you have. Having too much flexion will just cause you to kick more air or increase drag as your knees drop. There’s a limited amount of vertical space that you have to kick in,
Kick a lot! It really depends on what is keeping the swimmer back. If it is power and coordination, ten just plain kicking a lot will help. If there are joint mobility issues, then gotta work on those too. I honestly don’t know how much you can do to improve this, it seems to be one of those things that you either got or you don’t.
3b). There’s a progression which I think swimmers need to go through. The instinct for newer less experienced swimmers is to do a bicycle kick, which is characterized by the thigh and lower leg moving in opposite directions. It’s a natural motion, it’s how we walk, ride a bike etc. But it’s wrong in swimming. First learn to kick with the legs straight and minimal knee bend, then when you’ve got that down, work on getting the wave action gang from the hip down to the ankle, whereby the thighs remain nearly parallel for the whole kick cycle and the lower leg has quite a bit of bend, but up behind the swimmer rather than hanging down below.
3c). Learn to kick compactly. Common error in newer swimmers is to make the kicks too big, again, increasing drag.
Oh, and keeping your feet in a pigeon toed stance while you kick seems to help. My big toes usually hit each other at some point.
Is your goal to become a fast kicker or to take advantage of the kick to become a faster swimmer?
Kicking is a core and quad driven exercise which should cause the leg from the knee down to have a whip-like motion. Bigger whips are not necessarily better. Ankle flexion is important but not what holds most poor kickers back.
Using the kick to bolster swimming is more about timing, especially at slower speeds (for example, distance sets versus speed sets). Your kick should be nicely synched with your pull and breathing to increase efficiency.
The experts will downplay the impact of limited ankle flexibility, but I suspect it’s because they’ve never had this issue.
I believe it has a very significant impact and makes learning to swim smooth and efficient all that more challenging for the AOS. Having no kick is just 1 factor that contributes to lower hanging legs which increases drag which increases fatigue, which exacerbates low hanging legs and more drag and more fatigue. A vicious cycle! The swimmer with limited ankle flexion will always have to work harder and burn more energy at the same pace as a result.
I’ve even seen limited ankle flexion even causing reverse propulsion in the worst cases during kick sets - a big bowl of not good!
Maybe the experts can swim (both freestyle and kick sets) with their ankles locked with feet pointing down during the kick as a test and report back the results on if and how this messed up their swim?
The experts will downplay the impact of limited ankle flexibility, but I suspect it’s because they’ve never had this issue.
I believe it has a very significant impact and makes learning to swim smooth and efficient all that more challenging for the AOS. Having no kick is just 1 factor that contributes to lower hanging legs which increases drag which increases fatigue, which exacerbates low hanging legs and more drag and more fatigue. A vicious cycle! The swimmer with limited ankle flexion will always have to work harder and burn more energy at the same pace as a result.
I’ve even seen limited ankle flexion even causing reverse propulsion in the worst cases during kick sets - a big bowl of not good!
Maybe the experts can swim (both freestyle and kick sets) with their ankles locked with feet pointing down during the kick as a test and report back the results on if and how this messed up their swim?
Umm, the “experts” actually won’t downplay the importance of ankle flexibility, but as long as you have sufficient flexibility then you can develop a reasonable kick.
What #2 is talking about is if the rest of the kick needs to be altered to accommodate poor ankle flexibility. I’ve never seen any evidence that it would actually help matters to do so.
The “experts” are experts because they’ve seen it all.
Nope. I want my heels to break the surface, but that’s it.
Thanks for mentioning that the heel should break the surface of the water in freestyle. I noticed that my left heel does but right one does not unless I think about lifting it out. I did a set of 16x100m (50 fly + 50 free) and was trying to note what my heels were doing the entire time. It’s amazing how much concentration it takes to just focus on one measly thing at the redline. On fly, it “felt” that if I thought about getting my heels “out” then I had more “force” on the palm of my feet on the upstroke of the dolphin kick. Does this sound right?
By the way, thanks for all the “free coaching” on ST. I just crossed 600K of swimming for the year on the weekend and I have to say in all that yardage at all times, I have been working on several items that you bring up here on the forum. Well done.
here’s my question to those of you who know what you’re talking about on this subject.
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin?
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick).
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out.
What is fast? I asked on deck this morning. ‘Fast’ was very loosely decided to be able to do a set of 50s kick leaving every 1 minute, 6 leaving every minute was the suggestion. Short course yards. That’s not really fast, but it is faster than most adult triathletes are. And, it is fast for some kids who fall into question #3. I can kick a 100 in under 1:20, just one. I watched an ex-Olympian who is ‘out of shape’ for swimming kick a 1:01 the other day as part of a descending kick set at a kids workout. That’s fast.
Yes. I think that it can. I think that it’s a combination of the ankle flexion, but also the general foot/arch mobility so that you are able to put pressure on both sides of the water when kicking, up and down. And it’s the general ankle/arch flexibility that I think allow you to ‘whip’ your foot during the kick. There is quite a bit of foot and ankle range of motion during the kick.
Yes. I do think that the knee angle changes, but even for great kickers, there is a pretty big range of motion from the knees down in kicking.
I don’t think that they generally can, not adults. Can you go from 65 seconds per 50 yard to 60. Likely. 40 to 35 same. 65 seconds to 45 seconds, very very difficult. Ankle stretches, etc. can be tried, but then that might f-up the running if you are a triathlete. It’s not a cop-out to say you can’t. Good kickers can get better and bad kickers can get less bad by kicking a bit more. I think that if you are a poor kicker, you learn to keep your legs out of the way, have a two beat kick. Reduce the drag by getting them out of the way. Spend the time swimming instead of kicking. Would lower leg mobility work combined with arch/ankle mobility work help kicking…likely. Would it harm the running or cause lower leg issues? Some would say yes, others no. I don’t know.
Added. Kicking with fins might help a bit to get things loosened up and moving in the right direction.
If you have really poor mechanics, I think it is possible to improve a fair amount, 15-20 seconds per 50. Takes work, but it’s doable. If your mechanics are basically sound but just don’t have the ankle mobility, then you’re right, not a chance in hell…
Oh, and keeping your feet in a pigeon toed stance while you kick seems to help. My big toes usually hit each other at some point.
I’ve been trying this lately. It seems to be helping… at least I think it is. Seems my per 100 time has decreased by 1-2 seconds. Time will tell if its really from that Or I was having a good couple days.
I see this a lot. Sometimes it’s terminal, sometimes it curable. I find that fins help. Not zoomers, real fins. Also a drill where big toes are supposed to touch each other during the kick. This forces a little pidgon toe, it’s harder to have stiff ankles with feet turned in. Those, and stretches are what I suggest. Also seems that runners have the stiffest ankles.
does limited ankle flexion disqualify one from being a fast kicker, either flutter or dolphin?
does limited ankle flexion mean that kicking technique must alter (more knee flexion to give the foot the proper angle during the kick).
how does a bad kicker become a good kicker? now, if you just say, “kick a lot,” then i’ll take that to mean you really don’t understand the mechanics of kicking and this is your bail out.
I don’t know
I don’t know if kick technique alters, but I agree with kells that something else alters - I think if you’re not a kicker, then you compensate with a stronger pull.
Think about kicking both UP and down; do vertical kicking; think about engaging glutes; practice kicking streamlined on one’s back; SWIM BACKSTROKE.
