I am thinking of using Twinlab Phosfuel this week before IMMoo; I recently read about this, as sodium phosphate to buffer lactic acid; can someone who has used this give me some pointers
– general recommendation about this product? good stuff? (edit: after finishing this post I read that phosfuel is discontinued; anyone know why?)
– I don’t have it yet, so can’t read the label, but from web resources, the idea is to take 1g 4x/day on Thu/F/Sa before race. Is this good recommendation? (idea is your body builds up tolerance, so just take it right before race)
– high dosage NaPO4 is used as bowel prep; has anyone had stomach upset at the phosfuel recommended dosage?
– I live in Boston. where I can get this in the next few days, being discontinued?
I have my athletes use sodium phosphate before priority races. I recommend a 1 gram serving, 4 times per day with food, for 4 days before the event and one race morning. I have not had any reports of stomach upset when taken with food.
thanks for the info; giving the timing, I’ll try to find something local;
I am a medical student, and on the hospital floor we’d replete patients when the “phos” is low without thinking about it, with potassium-phos in the form these bad tasting liquid; now I can’t believeI am paying 20 bucks for a few tablets…
I guess it’s the phosphate that buffers, so I may go with calcium phosphate, since that’s the only thing I see in the online catalog of a local vitamin store; I guess I’ll have to calculate how much phosphate there is in 1g of sodium phosphate (I read that it is “trisodium phosphate”) and see how much calcium phosphate I need; I certainly didn’t need inorganic chemistry to become a surgeon, and who knew it’d need it to be a triathlete…
Ken, that should be okay, right? it’s just that next day shipping from e-caps is like $50, if I should start loading on time for this Sun; thanks
I’ve never used it for a race for one simple reason: I’ve never tried it in training. Be careful trying something you haven’t proven to yourself in training. Have a good race!
A week before the race and you’re thinking of trying this (discontinued) product for the first time?
At realistic Ironman pace this stuff isn’t going to be relevant because you aren’t going to be generating that much lactic acid to begin with. Your fueling and hydration are much more important…and your bullet item #3 should tell you all you need to know about whether this is a good idea…
First off, you’re a long-distance endurance athlete. TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENERGY SYSTEMS. The metabolic pathway intended for a supplement like this is for ATP/CP, not aerobic glycolisis. Plus, if you’re in an IM and you’ve produced lactic acid, your race is going to suffer. Those who say that every steep hill will be producing lactic acid and something like this will help buffer for all of those hills are lying to you in order to get you to buy the supplement. Even if you’ve used the right supplement, it will not last longer than about 8 minutes of high intensity exercise. The supplement that is halfway reputable is sodium bicarbonate, a.k.a- baking soda. Save your cash and head to the grocery store if you want to try it.
It also must be taken within 90 minutes of high intensity activity (and is also dependent if your gut can handle it- can you say EXPLOSION!). Intake must be immediate and complete- recommendations have been at 0.3g/kg of body mass. NOT OVER THE COURSE OF PREVIOUS DAYS like those idiots at Twinlab say.
The concept of using a supplement to buffer lactic acid has been used for a good number of years. Research is equivocal at best.
Don’t believe the hype. You’ll do more good for your race with a good carbo load and strong cup of coffee.
First off, you’re a long-distance endurance athlete. TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENERGY SYSTEMS. The metabolic pathway intended for a supplement like this is for ATP/CP, not aerobic glycolisis. Plus, if you’re in an IM and you’ve produced lactic acid, your race is going to suffer.
You produce lactate all the time (even at rest) – unless you have McArdle Syndrome
Phosphate doesn’t appear to buffer lactate. I believe you are confusing bicarbonate loading (0.3 g/kg) with phosphate loading (needs ~ 4-5 days of loading) both of which act in a different way with different loading protocols
Those who say that every steep hill will be producing lactic acid and something like this will help buffer for all of those hills are lying to you in order to get you to buy the supplement. Even if you’ve used the right supplement, it will not last longer than about 8 minutes of high intensity exercise. The supplement that is halfway reputable is sodium bicarbonate, a.k.a- baking soda. Save your cash and head to the grocery store if you want to try it.
It also must be taken within 90 minutes of high intensity activity (and is also dependent if your gut can handle it- can you say EXPLOSION!). Intake must be immediate and complete- recommendations have been at 0.3g/kg of body mass. NOT OVER THE COURSE OF PREVIOUS DAYS like those idiots at Twinlab say.
The concept of using a supplement to buffer lactic acid has been used for a good number of years. Research is equivocal at best.
Don’t believe the hype. You’ll do more good for your race with a good carbo load and strong cup of coffee.
I guess it’s the phosphate that buffers, so I may go with calcium phosphate, since that’s the only thing I see in the online catalog of a local vitamin store; I guess I’ll have to calculate how much phosphate there is in 1g of sodium phosphate (I read that it is “trisodium phosphate”) and see how much calcium phosphate I need; I certainly didn’t need inorganic chemistry to become a surgeon, and who knew it’d need it to be a triathlete…
Ken, that should be okay, right? it’s just that next day shipping from e-caps is like $50, if I should start loading on time for this Sun; thanks
-lewis
Phosphate doesn’t appear to act as a buffer. the actual mechanism that phosphate may improve performance is, as yet unknown, although research points to two specific areas (in no particular order) 1) increases in 2,3-BPG and a rightward shift of the oxy-haemoglobin dissociation curve, and 2) increases in cardiac output
An analysis of previous research shows that the performance effects of phosphate loading appear to be limited to tribasic sodium phosphate. Calcium phosphate appears to positively effect some cardiovascular and haemotology markers, but appears to have no effect on actual performance.
In our paper we had one person who was severely affected by the phosphate. The ‘good’ thing is that it happens near instantaneously after taking the phosphate. This subject reported that about 15-mins after taking the phosphate he suddenly felt the urge to throw up. As soon as he felt this urge, he threw up. unfortunately, he was in a train station at the time, and has never spoken to me since!
We found that power at TT intensity was increased ~ 8% during a lab 10-mile TT, and that MAP was also increased as was 25-mile TT power (the latter two we didn’t test with everyone in our study so these data aren’t reported).
“…increases in 2,3-BPG and a rightward shift of the oxy-haemoglobin dissociation curve…”
Just a typo, I’m sure, but, it’s 2,3 DPG… Same thing that is in sorta’ in short supply in packed red blood cells. Thanks for the information about energy source systems, that should clear up the confusion in lots of people’s minds.
“…increases in 2,3-BPG and a rightward shift of the oxy-haemoglobin dissociation curve…”
Just a typo, I’m sure, but, it’s 2,3 DPG… Same thing that is in sorta’ in short supply in packed red blood cells. Thanks for the information about energy source systems, that should clear up the confusion in lots of people’s minds.
It’s actually, 2,3-BPG. The nomenclature was changed over 10 years ago from DPG to BPG, to reflect the way the phosphate group is bonded to the 2nd and 3rd carbon, e.g., see Brown and Keith (1993). JSS.
I’ve used Phos Fuel for my last seven marathons and this year’s Wildflower half IM. Whether physical or phychological, I have felt that it staves off the “deadman’s shuffle” and lessens it’s effect when and if it does raise it’s painful head. No GI problems for me.
A question for those who seem to have brains: My bottle is now many years old - maybe eight. Does it deteriorate over time?
"You produce lactate all the time (even at rest) – unless you have McArdle Syndrome "
Yes, you are right- you do produce lactate at all times even at rest. But in simple tri-geek terminology, the only “lactic acid” most refer to is the kind they attribute to high intensity intervals. Next time I won’t generalize as much. Sorry about that. I should know better when there are people with alot more research than I have under their belts regarding endurance sports and supplements.
No- I’m not confusing phosphate loading with bicarbonate loading. Even though the Twinlab “product” the original poster was referring to is phoshate, I was trying to communicate that phosphate for lactate buffering has less evidence than bicarbonate, so if they were going to even try something as crazy as this a few weeks before IM, I figure they would be better to try something that at least has better results.
Bottom line is though, and I’m sure even Dr. Stern (how’s the research coming?) would agree with this, is that lactate buffering is better left for the crit racers and athletes with short events that do not rely so much on aerobic pathways to fuel the exercise. Especially since both areas do not have enough supporting documents to take a chance with it the week before a long-distance endurance event.
just to clarify phosphate and bicarb don’t intend to do the same thing: “buffer lactate”. There isn’t any evidence (at least that i’m aware of) that phosphate buffers lactate, it would appear to work by increasing VO2max and/or TTpower and thereby allowing the rider to ride at a higher power than previously. In our work HR, lactate were similar or the same between all three conditions.
Actually, as far as i’m aware, all the research that has used tribasic sodium phosphate has been shown to be ergogenic. the data is only equivocal when other phosphates are introduced into any analysis.
I would not suggest anyone tries anything new directly prior to an important event. the chances of something going wrong and cocking things up for the athlete is too high (imo).
I’m not a Dr - either medical or PhD. Although people tend to think of a crit as being non-aerobic it is in fact likely to be very close to 100% aerobic (although there is an anaerobic contribution). Even an event such as the 4-km pursuit (~ 4.25 mins duration) is ~ 80 % aerobic. I wouldn’t want to count the number of crits i’ve ridden in the last 20 years, the last 6 years have been exclusively ridden with a power meter, and all of them have been less power than a ~1-hr TT.
I was trying to generalize so that there would be others to get some practical use out of the topic.
OK- I stand corrected again. Crits are very much aerobic, until you get down to the final k’s, which is where the bicarb may (or may not) assist with the power output at the end. If it even is needed depending on the race outcome.
The only reason I said Dr. was because I was under the impression you were going for your PhD. Forgive me for trying to show a little bit of respect.
Never thought about using bicarb in a crit. the only riders i’ve suggested it too are kilo specialists, etc.
Sorry, if i appeared curt with regards to the PhD/doc point. i was just stating that i wasn’t doing a PhD. I gave it up a while back to fully concentrate on coaching, which is something i prefer (not that i also wouldn’t like to have continued my PhD, but i don’t have time to do both).