Any thoughts on whether I should use Daniels Running Formula or Pete’s Advanced Marathoning for my first stand alone marathon? I have used Daniels for 5k and 10k and had great success- just not sure when it comes to marathoning if Pete’s book is a better choice. I am a seasoned masters runner if that is relevant to any advice. thanks
Having read and trained using each, here are my two cents.
Daniels seems to advocate more high intensity running, even in the marathon plans. Pfitzinger, on the other hand, seems to prefer more moderate paced running.
Because it will be your first marathon, I assume it will be your first time getting into high mileage. That being the case, Pfitz may be the way to go, because running at a lower intensity will be less likely to cause injury. If, however, you’ve already built a solid base and are already running higher mileage, then perhaps Daniels would work.
Probably can’t go too wrong with either one. I have used Daniels in the past and find his approach pretty easy to understand and apply.
Probably depends on your goal for the marathon. BQ times typically require long runs with portions at or below your goal marathon pace.
take concepts from both and make a plan.
I’ve used both before, as well as Run Faster by Brad Hudson and the FIRST (Furman Univ) program in the Run Less, Run Faster book. I found the Hudson plan for Masters and the FIRST program to be very similar, and both require more intensity and less miles than Pfitz. Basically run hard every other day, and cross train the other days. Most long runs were run at fast paces, and much faster than Pfitz. That being said, might be good to work up to Pfitz miles for 1st marathon, and then use Hudson/FIRST for 2nd.
The FIRST program does have marathon plan for BQ efforts and tells you exactly the paces to run during your three tough workouts a week. Good stuff, and very challenging.
Good luck.
I used Pete Pfitzinger earlier this year and had a lot of success. It was the right plan for me. That said, I also know a bunch of people who swear by the whiskey maker so its really up to you. The previous posts do a good job outlining the basic differences.
Regardless of which plan you pick, I strongly recommend Advancing Marathon by Pete Pfitzinger. Even if you don’t follow his plans, the book provides some excellent insight into marathon training and racing.
FWIW – check out the archive on my blog from earlier this year. It goes through my running history, why i decided on the Pfitz plan, and my training along the way. It chronicles my journey from a 3:33 to a 3:08 open marathon.
Consistency is key and best of luck with you run training.
I think they’re way more similar than they are different - I’ve done variations of both. But if forced to choose between the two, I’d go with Daniels.
One main difference is that Daniels has you do the fast (R) stuff first, then moves on to Threshold (T) - Pfitz does it in reverse. The Daniels approach just felt better to me - running T stuff closer to race day felt closer (or more “specific”) to Marathon running (i.e. maintaining a steady, slightly uncomfortable pace for a decent period of time). When I was doing Pfitz, during those last few weeks when you’re doing VO2max repeats, it doesn’t feel much like marathon training - and can almost be a bit discouraging and get in your head at that stage in the game. That’s just my take though - I guess if you found T stuff harder, Daniels might get in your head.
Pfitz’s schedules are nicely laid out - you look at it, you know what you need to do.
Daniels is a bit more complicated (part of the reason for the “formula” part of the title I think) and I think that scares some people off. It’s not that bad, though - you just need to put a little work in up front to get your schedule dialed in. And with some of his workouts it initially feels you need a protractor to figure them out. But ultimately I think it’s worth the effort.
Don’t think you can go wrong with either, though - and reading both is certainly enlightening.
Weird - I went from 3:33 to 3:08 as well. Further proof that any intelligently designed plan will probably do the trick if you just put in the work.
Any thoughts on whether I should use Daniels Running Formula or Pete’s Advanced Marathoning for my first stand alone marathon? I have used Daniels for 5k and 10k and had great success- just not sure when it comes to marathoning if Pete’s book is a better choice. I am a seasoned masters runner if that is relevant to any advice. thanks
What is your goal with the marathon? Assuming your goal is to really maximize performance, how willing are you to risk injury? Also, what is the longest race you’ve done in the past year (including tris) and what kind of long runs (including pace) and weekly mileage have you done in the past six months?
The key to running your best marathon above all is runs within 20 seconds either side of marathon pace. Especially longer runs and “cut-down” longer runs. I vaguely recall that neither Pfitz nor Daniels advocate those exactly the way I’d recommend doing them, but it’s been a while and I could be remembering wrong.
As a masters runner, I recommend **Jack Daniels. **
I’m a masters runner too, and mixing fast intervals with 20+ mile long runs in the same week = injury for me.
Using Jack’s plan, the threshold work leads to less strained muscles and faster recovery. For younger runners, it doesn’t matter as much, but for us older folks I think Jack is the way to go…
I’ve used both before, as well as Run Faster by Brad Hudson and the FIRST (Furman Univ) program in the Run Less, Run Faster book. I found the Hudson plan for Masters and the FIRST program to be very similar, and both require more intensity and less miles than Pfitz. Basically run hard every other day, and cross train the other days. Most long runs were run at fast paces, and much faster than Pfitz. That being said, might be good to work up to Pfitz miles for 1st marathon, and then use Hudson/FIRST for 2nd.
The FIRST program does have marathon plan for BQ efforts and tells you exactly the paces to run during your three tough workouts a week. Good stuff, and very challenging.
Good luck.
Having Read all of the above, I am a strong Brad Hudson Advocate (Foundational) - I disagree with Linear phases from others.
Thanks for all the feedback! I will probably end up with Daniels but as recommended will read Pfitz also. Before I got into triathlons 4 years ago I had a VDOT of 54 (2:58 marathon per JD’s table). Thanks to triathlon, I went from a solid masters runner to an ok runner (VDOT of 50), from a really poor swimmer to a mediocre swimmer and from a poor cyclist to an ok cyclist. In 2010 I am focusing on running and biking only with the NYC marathon as my A race. My current mileage is 30 mpw-realistically, because of risk of injury, I don’t think I will get much past 50mpw in 2010. Its way too early to seriously think of time, but sub 3:20 would be nice… I love triathlon but does anyone share my frustration with how is negatively affects your key or base sport? 7 hours a week of running is really solid for my running but when my time is limited to 11-12 hours a week for all 3 sports my running suffers…
I’ve found my passion for running and passion for triathlon to be compatible. My October through March is largely running focused. I’ll do a December marathon or March marathon most years, and find that about 6 weeks of running focus (that I call sharpening) is about all I need to go from triathlete back to running shape. Then from April-September I’m back in the water and on the bike more, and my running miles decrease. What I have found is that going from a year-round runner, to now having these focused times, makes me appreciate running more, and as a Masters athlete, I think my body does better with 3 key runs a week rather than 6 x a week running anyway. I don’t totally give up the swim and bike during the run focus periods, but am much less structured. I’ve also had some years that were more tri focused and some years more run focused. This year, for example, I ran marathons in March, June, November and December, which is about 3 marathon too many, but it is just how my season worked out based on my desire to BQ. I also had 70.3 race and other tris in the summer, but 2009 will go down as a running focused year for me. 2010, however, is about IM racing again. 2011 may be marathon focused (at least with Boston). I think Masters athletes can find new goals and new races to get excited about, even if we don’t hit PRs from our earlier days. And in many cases being a more well rounded athlete will yield single sport PRs as well. Good luck!