OWS 15km Training Questions

Triathlon Forum
1

Hello fish,

I’m toying with the idea of doing the “Cold Half” OWS in Hong Kong which should be held Feb 18. (permits are in the works as we speak) The distance is 15km and there is a wetsuit and non-wetsuit option.

My IM swim times are consistently 52-53 minutes with wetsuit. I swim 5000M 50m long course with open turns (Yes, i know…!) at 1:07. And my training for these times is rudimentary. Usually 11400M a week of just 3800m time trial. I have relatively good form, lifelong swimmer. Overall fitness is strong with my IM times coming in around the 10hour mark.

So…what kind of training would be involved for a 15km OWS? I don’t expect to win it, but finishing is not the goal either. I want to be reasonably competitive. I will most likely choose the wetsuit event.

In addition, how would this affect the other elements of my training beyond the time spent in the pool versus swimming or biking?

Any guidance and help would be very much appreciated!

2

These are my thoughts:

You need to strive to be the best swimmer you can be. Increase volume per week, density in sets, longest swim gradually. Swimming 15k OW is tough and requires not only fitness but also high structural capacity as not to get niggles and pains during the event, which could derail everything.

If you only swim about 3-4h/week now I would build a plan where you first increase frequency, then add volume by increasing density (more distance per time swum), then adding extra time. I would have 1 day where you work 100-400 pace, one day where you work 800-1500 pace and one day where you do a lot of pulling, and then have the rest of the swims be pretty easy.

If the OW competition is in february, and you want to be competitive in triathlons by july-august, I’ll say thats very doable. Keep running some during the swim focus to keep the load tolerance in your legs. Bike 1x week.

Remember its all about having fun and setting a high goal in one of the sports can be absolutely super, so I’ll say go for it. 52-53 minute IM swims are really good and with such low weekly volume I would expect you to be rather competitive if you do a few months of solid swim training.

3

Your question is as open ended as coming here to say “how do I train for a marathon?” There are many, many variables.

On one hand if you are a legitimate 52 minute Iron distance swim split guy, and consistently put in 11.5k per week, you could do a few prep swims where you do long straight swims - work on feeding and then go do the 15k based on nothing else.

On the other hand, you could work to get yourself up to 30k per week and routinely bang out 10ks on weekends.

Assuming you are a somewhat average, working man doing endurance sports on the weekends; then working yourself up to 20k per week for the last 8ish to 6ish weeks and include 2 weeks where you hit 30k or more, AND do a few race sim type things to get your feeding right - then you’d slot right in with a lot of us who do similar races and train in somewhat similar ways.

As for how much it will affect your other training, it will affect it as much as you want it to. Again, consider if you wanted to do a marathon the same day. You could do a marathon off of your current training just add a little distance on a few long runs and you could show up and run it. Or you could totally give yourself to marathon training and do a little better. This is similar, if you want to keep your bike and run mileage the same, you can totally do that and do OK at the swim, or totally give yourself over to the swim training and get up to 30 or 40k per week.

I work with a fair few athletes who are adding marathon swims to their tri career and pairing back the bike and run to once or twice per week and moving the swim to 5 or 6 times per week is pretty common. That gets them through the race feeling good about their experience usually. Of course there’s also the guy across town who swims three times per week and no more, and routinely wins open water swim races, but for most folks I have seen the 5 or 6 times per week is a solid swim training amount.

4

I’ve coached a bunch of people that wanted to do marathon swims. If you want to do well, which is what you seem to be hinting at in your post, you’ll need to swim 6 days a week and consistently build the intensity/volume. Ideally, you’d want to build it to 2x1 hour workouts a day on most days. Monitoring closely how you are recovering and track your progress in speed and efficiency.

In regards to your run and bike training, something will have to give. If you want to do well in the swim then that will need to be your primary focus and biking and running would need to take a back seat. There is only so much training you can do in a day/week and it’s significantly less than the triathlon community generally believes.

I’ve trained a number of athletes for 10k and marathon swims. I’m happy to help with any other questions.

Best regards,

Tim

5

Thank you so much for the thoughtful and insightful replies. I have gained a lot of insight into swimming.

As I live in Taiwan, in some ways, February is a key training period as I will be racing IMTW March 19, IM LiuZhou April 1, and probably Challenge Taiwan full April 29. I’m also running marathons on Dec 18 and Feb 12. March 19 I hope to go fast, the others are for fun, and my “A” race for 2017 will either be IM Taiwan on Oct 1 or Kona Oct 14. (Trying to decide what my aspirations are for that race…went 10:01 in 2015. Have fun and enjoy the atmosphere, or see what I can do against the clock). Racing so often in Taiwan because a) it’s home and b) love racing with my buddies! (I guess a and b are the same!) BUT…I love swimming…and my training buddies just want to get out of the water and onto the real race.

My normal training time per week is 20-25 hours as I’m lucky to control my work schedule. Also, on weekends my wife trains with the same group, so even when we are running together, we are together, so that allows more time to train too.

I don’t have any aspirations for the marathons…but my friends have put the pressure on me to go sub 3…I’m 3:13 dispassionate marathon runner…but if I want to bring my IM time down into the 9:40s…a 3:37 IM marathon is not going to cut it. But swimmer’s physique versus runner’s…sigh :slight_smile:

So…based on what I’m reading here, it sounds like I don’t have the training time to sufficiently commit to swimming enough to do the race justice. So I think what I will do instead is do a 15km time trial in the 50m pool…cheap and convenient, and if it gets too real, I can drop out without having to be rescued. See how that goes, see how I feel, and then think about how much I want to do this and how I will go about doing it. 15000M of up and down should be a good mind test if anything else!

6

Hey Darren,

Given the info you’ve provided, I suspect you’re a lot closer to doing well at this race than you think & ‘success’ in the event depends on expectations.

Could you do it tomorrow & finish based on your current fitness? Sure.
Could you do it tomorrow at the best of your ability? No.

This season I raced my 1st 15k OWS in the Florida Keys & aimed to do so, as fit as possible (my race report w/ a bunch of pics is posted here if you’re curious):

9-Mile Swim for Alligator Light - 3rd o’all (Race Report)

*If you go through the pics, the captions on each go through the details of the race.

I have a good circle of friends/training partners w/ A LOT of distance OWS experience (English Channel, Catalina, etc…), so I picked their brains on the best way for me to prep for this & FWIW, I was coming from a similar workout schedule as you (i.e. 10k +/- /week) & if I had to guess, probably in sub55 IM swim shape by the time my race rolled around, just to give some perspective on fitness & how it parallels w/ you.

The thought process was to:

  1. Increase the frequency of my swimming to 6-7 days /week
  2. Increase total training volume to consistently get >20k /week
  3. Increase the distance of my weekly long swim from 3-4k to 12-14k (ideally in the ocean)
  4. Maintain 1-2 days /week of intensity

So I did this & below is an overview of the final 8-weeks into the race (these are yards):

Week 8 (7/25): 25,400
Week 7 (8/1): 22,100 *Included 1-mile Ocean Swim Race
Week 6 (8/8): 26,000
Week 5 (8/15): 30,160 *Included 1-mile Ocean Swim Race
Week 4 (8/22): 14,200 *Planned rest week after 4-week build
Week 3 (8/29): 30,400
Week 2 (9/5): 18,700
RACE WEEK (9/12): I have about 13,000-yards scheduled Mon >> Fri this week, w/ the race on Saturday…but that will be highly dependent on how I’m feeling & may abbreviate workouts if need be.

Anyway, given that I’ve been away from racing for the better part of 10-years, it felt good to put on the competitive hat again & do an off-the-beaten-path type of event.

Happy to help if you have any other questions, best of luck :slight_smile:

7

Darren,

I can attest to how effective Brian’s plan was. He had a great swim and would have won MVP but for his choice of post-race beverages.

I did the same swim as Brian, but from a different perspective. I am normally a 1:05 - 1:07 IM swimmer, but I have a good aerobic engine from lots of bike volume. Like Brian, I increased frequency to 6x per week and increased per session volume to 4-6K with a weekly “long swim”. I wound up doing 30-35K per week for most of July and August for a September race. Longest sessions were 3x 12k open water and 3x10k scy.

With your background, I’d say to increase frequency and volume while cutting down on any interval or speed work. Throw in a weekly long swim that builds up to at least 10-12K and you’ll be fine.

Have fun! I really enjoyed the change.

8

If you want to be competitive, ditch the wettie.

9

Brian,

You guys are even more persuasive than my friends who twist my arm to get me to do endurance events that go against my common sense!

I’m still gunning for a sub 4:30 70.3 on March 19, but I’m going to bring the swim volume up as much as I can while still biking and running. So probably 3-5 swims per week, long swim of 10000m(Did one yesterday at 2:14 in a 50m pool) and get in that ocean and see what happens. (This swim should be Feb 18, but they are still waiting for permits from HK authorities.)

As for the wetsuit vs “naturally buoyant” category…it really depends on the water temp. But swimming in a really fast wetsuit and salt water is a fun thing in and of itself too. First time…probably go with the wetsuit and then go from there…

10

I am pushing this thread up. I want to do this competition as well next year, however I am not as fast as the OP. My 3.8 km swim time is about 86 minutes, so my aim is only to finish it without being cut-off at 6 hours, and I didn’t seem to get any faster than that even after 9 months of squad training in a tri club, only the endurance improve that I can reasonably complete 14 km without a problem (I’ve just done a 13 km race last week but I went seriously off-course because the instruction was not clear)

People in my club think I am too ambitious but I really want to do it. Is it likely for me to get my speed up in half a year such that I can meet the cut-off?

11

Getting your speed up to make the cutoff in 6 months would be dependent on a lot of variables. The first would be can your mechanics and your fitness handle the increase in training needed to get faster. I just had an athlete race the Manhattan Island Marathon Swim (20 Bridges) and another who competed in the Portland Bridge Swim. Both did well and on a lot less training than other athletes. For the 20 Bridges athlete she trained on half the volume of other competitors and got 5th overall.

The first thing would be get a good strength and conditioning program that is swimming specific. If you need recommendations, let me know.

Next get a coach who has trained athletes for Open Water Marathon Swims - not a triathlon coach. You can’t have a coach fake it anymore.

Be consistent, focus and dedicated to what you are doing. Buy-in to the program you are doing.

If you have any other questions, let me know.

Tim

12

Thank you so much for the thoughtful and insightful replies. I have gained a lot of insight into swimming.

As I live in Taiwan, in some ways, February is a key training period as I will be racing IMTW March 19, IM LiuZhou April 1, and probably Challenge Taiwan full April 29. I’m also running marathons on Dec 18 and Feb 12. March 19 I hope to go fast, the others are for fun, and my “A” race for 2017 will either be IM Taiwan on Oct 1 or Kona Oct 14. (Trying to decide what my aspirations are for that race…went 10:01 in 2015. Have fun and enjoy the atmosphere, or see what I can do against the clock). Racing so often in Taiwan because a) it’s home and b) love racing with my buddies! (I guess a and b are the same!) BUT…I love swimming…and my training buddies just want to get out of the water and onto the real race.

My normal training time per week is 20-25 hours as I’m lucky to control my work schedule. Also, on weekends my wife trains with the same group, so even when we are running together, we are together, so that allows more time to train too.

I don’t have any aspirations for the marathons…but my friends have put the pressure on me to go sub 3…I’m 3:13 dispassionate marathon runner…but if I want to bring my IM time down into the 9:40s…a 3:37 IM marathon is not going to cut it. But swimmer’s physique versus runner’s…sigh :slight_smile:

So…based on what I’m reading here, it sounds like I don’t have the training time to sufficiently commit to swimming enough to do the race justice. So I think what I will do instead is do a 15km time trial in the 50m pool…cheap and convenient, and if it gets too real, I can drop out without having to be rescued. See how that goes, see how I feel, and then think about how much I want to do this and how I will go about doing it. 15000M of up and down should be a good mind test if anything else!

I am going through this dilemma EXACTLY right now, but my triathlon ambitions are less ambitious. I am coming off a 4 year rehab of my lumbar disc and finally have the ability to bike and run…yeah!

I am doing a 12km Lake crossing swim in Mont Tremblant in 11 days. Also I have started training for Olympic Tris at the same time. I have generally been swimming 100km per month since Jan 1 so my base swimming volume is there, but it is non specific to open water. Mainly I have been training IM strokes for the pool race season from Dec to May.

I think an endurance race is an endurance race. If you have volume you have volume…if you don’t have volume you don’t have volume. How you slice and dice getting to your volume is the key but you need swim volume. I think you need several swim weeks of 30km plus. If you do that while banging out some 24 hrs weeks of swim bike run, then I think you’ll hit it for your open water swim and for your tri season. Keep in mind that those 20+ hrs weeks of tri training while you bang out 30 km of swimming (I assume this is 7-8 hrs of swimming for you) is actually a huge advantage. If you are “just a swimmer” doing 30-40km weeks, you’re on a 10 hrs per week training plan. If you are triathlete doing 8 hrs of swimming and 12 hrs of bike-run, you will be pretty fit for the long race, probably fitter than the swimmer doing only 10 hrs of swimming.

I actually had a few “long days” that were 6km open water swim + 70 km hilly bike + 30 min jogging. That session is 4.5 hrs. I expect to be in the water for 3.5 hrs or so (ideally faster) for my 12km swim, but once I get much beyond 7 km in the water, the quality goes south…so better have multi sport combo days while keeping volume high…I THINK many of us have had success in open marathons the same way…run 6-10 hrs in a week and layer on 10-15 hrs more of swim-bike and we come out fitter than just an 8 hrs per week running program and go faster.

But I don’t think you can cheat the aggregate swim volume thing. You might as a lifelong swimmer more than someone like me who is an adult onset guy, but a long distance swim is like a 200 fly…50 fly you can crank out. The piano comes out in the back third in the 200 fly. I’d expect that a 15km swim is like that. Expect the piano on your back some time around 10km. The first 2 hrs of swimming come for free, just like the first 2 hrs of an open or IM marathon come for free…its once you go past 2 hrs in swimming or running that hell breaks loose. You need event specific volume for that.

13

Hi Tim,

The first thing would be get a good strength and conditioning program that is swimming specific. If you need recommendations, let me know.

What do you mean by a strength and conditioning program? I know the university, that my tri club is based in, offers such program, lead by the director of the sports centre in close collaboration of the tri club. But how such program is useful for swimming? I think that technique is all we need to get myself fast, therefore I am getting coaching and also video analysis from the tri club as well.

Next get a coach who has trained athletes for Open Water Marathon Swims - not a triathlon coach. You can’t have a coach fake it anymore.

Tim

What’s the difference between a triathlon coach and a coach for open water marathon swimming? I thought they were the same so I joined the tri club squad training at my university and took video analysis session from the same coach as well, and a few marathon swimmers, including channel swimmers, train in the tri club I’m in regularly as well, in their faster lanes (probably around 1’20" - 1’30" / 100 m) which I always envy. Marathon swimming hasn’t been really developed here and the tri club I’m in, by coincidence, is one of the place where most marathon swimmers living here train in.

14

You may also find that this increase in swim volume actually helps your IM run split more than increasing your run volume.

You are probably one of those life long swimmers who goes fast but actually burns a lot of matches swimming that fast while pulling all that water (because you can), but your body may be cashing cheques in the water that your body cannot really cash…it may be taking stuff from your bank account for the run. There are basic physics required to swim that fast and you are likely putting more power to the water than the the guys out running you. On the bike, let’s say you do the exact kilojoules as the other guys who swam slower than you. By the time you get to T2, you’re in a bigger deficit because you swam so fast (and yes you are at T2 earlier because of your higher swim power application)…but those kilojoules you spend in the swim came from inside your body and you don’t have them for the run.

Let me put it another way…if I swim with paddles on I swim faster but I am more tired. If I swim with fins on, I swim faster but my legs get depleted. When I take them off, I swim slower but I am less gassed. You are like the version of the rest of us that has built in paddles and fins…but you’re working pretty hard.

Your swim volume may be too low to support that IM swim split given that you also have to bike and run. Or you can do like Andy Potts and dial back you IM swim and swim 55-56 min and treat it like a warmup…give away 3-4 min in the swim and get back 20 min on the run off the same swim - run volume breakdown…or use this swim race as an experiment to do the same swim volume as Lucy Charles and see if it actually jacks up your bike and run speed while keeping your swim at 53.

15

The training is the technique. The view that all you need to do to get fast in the swim is work on your technique is one of the reasons why you don’t want a triathlon coach to coach you. That tends to be a very triathlon view of swim training.

The S&C work should be 3x a week and support (prevent injuries) and compliment (Increase and coordinate the strength in the stroke) the work you’re doing in the pool.

In my experience, the large majority of triathlon coaches don’t have the swim coaching experience needed for a marathon swim or longer. It’s easier to get injured with the training than training the swim for an Ironman swim, for instance. I’m not specifically speaking about your program.

Marathon swimming really hasn’t been that developed anywhere. It’s getting much more popular on the East and West Coast of the US and I’ve had a lot more interest in it over the last few years on my team. We’ve already had 7 athletes on the team do marathon or ultra-marathon swims this year with at least 2 more athletes racing within the next few months.

Tim

16

The training is the technique. The view that all you need to do to get fast in the swim is work on your technique is one of the reasons why you don’t want a triathlon coach to coach you. That tends to be a very triathlon view of swim training.

In my experience, the large majority of triathlon coaches don’t have the swim coaching experience needed for a marathon swim or longer. It’s easier to get injured with the training than training the swim for an Ironman swim, for instance. I’m not specifically speaking about your program.

Tim

Hi Tim, I still don’t understand how triathlon swimming (especially for IM distance) is different from marathon swimming. I suppose that training for an IM swim is similar to training for a 10 km swim, isn’t it? I’m a “beginner” swimmer and couldn’t even join the training of the tri club I’m in now until last year when I could reach 2’10" / 100 m speed which the minimum speed required to join the training, and with my 33 minutes 1.5 km or 86 minutes 3.8 km swim time I’m still far from a good swimmer, and such a slow time most likely indicates serious technique issues so I dare not increase my training further until I sort out most of my technique problems with my coach first.

17

The first obvious difference would be balancing out training for 3 events versus just one. The second difference is the swim you want to do versus the IM swim is almost 4x longer. Third, the vast majority of triathlon coaches don’t have the swim coaching experience to coach a marathon swim or longer. Again, not writing specifically about your program.

In my experience, a 1h26m IM swim, there are definitely technique issues. But there are also significant fitness issues. You can’t separate out technique from training. At the speeds you’re going (due to your lack of strength, fitness and technique), you won’t be able to get to some of the technique. Getting faster and more efficient involves increasing both your fitness and technique that go hand in hand on very consistent basis in your workouts while you work hard with a very focused attention on your stroke. Improving is a dialogue between athlete and coach.

Hope this helps.

Tim

18

The first obvious difference would be balancing out training for 3 events versus just one. The second difference is the swim you want to do versus the IM swim is almost 4x longer. Third, the vast majority of triathlon coaches don’t have the swim coaching experience to coach a marathon swim or longer. Again, not writing specifically about your program.

In my experience, a 1h26m IM swim, there are definitely technique issues. But there are also significant fitness issues. You can’t separate out technique from training. At the speeds you’re going (due to your lack of strength, fitness and technique), you won’t be able to get to some of the technique. Getting faster and more efficient involves increasing both your fitness and technique that go hand in hand on very consistent basis in your workouts while you work hard with a very focused attention on your stroke. Improving is a dialogue between athlete and coach.

Hope this helps.

Tim
I finally completed the cold half this year. The sea was about 20°C on that day. However, I needed 5:14:26 to complete the ~14 km course, which placed me nearly at the bottom of the ranking list (11th / 13 among non-wetsuit swimmers).