what name will you have next, Eric628?
?? This is the only name I have ever used on this site, and only about the 6th post I have ever written…
Greg, didn’t I answer those questions for you in another thread? The answers are really quite simple.
Easy tinman. The reason we are in Afghanistan is to primarily prevent them from harboring terrorists. The goal is to deny sanctuary and if we pulled out now, they could easily move right back in. This problem will never go away because as long as there are countries with unsecure borders and lax government, there will be a place for terrorists to plot, train and organize. They are like cockroaches. The second you turn your back, they will move back in. Strangely enough, coalition forces use an old terrorist training camp outside Khandahar, AFG to do live fire training for upcoming operations.
- I agree about being screwed either way. It appears that if left to their own majority rule Iraq may elect a government that looks a lot like Iran. If we prevent that, the government will be perceived as a US puppet. Bush Sr. looks smarter all the time. On the bright side Sistini seems a lot more reasonable than his Iran counterparts.*
Easy tinman. The reason we are in Afghanistan is to primarily prevent them from harboring terrorists. The goal is to deny sanctuary and if we pulled out now, they could easily move right back in. This problem will never go away because as long as there are countries with unsecure borders and lax government, there will be a place for terrorists to plot, train and organize. They are like cockroaches. The second you turn your back, they will move back in. Strangely enough, coalition forces use an old terrorist training camp outside Khandahar, AFG to do live fire training for upcoming operations.
Didn’t the 9/11 terrorists plot, train, and organize in the United States?
Most of their initial training/indoctrination was done in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Phillipines. At one time or another, they all spent time in Afghanistan. It is like a basic training for terrorists. Some did their flight training in the US, though they were all acting in independent groups. That is why they are so hard to find now.
The source for the assertions I am making here is a lecture I attended by Dr. Mary Habeck, Associate Professor of History at Yale University. You can find her curriculum vitae on the Yale website.
You really cannot separate what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan and even in Israel/Palestine from one another. They are all part of the global objectives of militant Islamism. Their objectives:
(1) Eliminate the Jewish state of Israel in what they view as territory that rightly belongs to Islam.
(2) Restore Islam to its’ former place in the world including all territories once ruled under Islam (which includes Spain by the way) and install Islamic law (Sharia) as the law of the land in all this area and convert, subjugate, or kill all who are not Muslim. This is really only an interim objective as their real goal includes the entire planet.
(3) Punish the USA for its’ sins which include, inter alia, support of Israel, embarassment of the once most powerful Islamic country (Iraq), defiling the Holy Land of the cities of Mecca and Medina (Saudi Arabia) with our troops, and our general “sinful” lifestyle which we are spreading throughout the world.
(4) Punish or convert Muslims who do not adhere to to Sharia or their version of it (i.e., Turkey).
Militant Islamists are a loosely organized bunch who share some goals but have historically not worked together or, at times, even at cross-purposes. Al-Qaeda was formed by UBL to bring some coordination and unification to these efforts to further the accomplishment of their common goals.
I have seen some assertions on this issue here that say Iraq was not threatening the US, that our war there is a war of imperialism or is all about oil, or that giving the Palestinians their own homeland will solve it all. If you believe what Dr. Habeck says above, which I have paraphrased, you will understand why this is all BS. Only achievement of the four goals above will stop the Islamic “Holy” War. Even when they achieve these goals they will begin fighting amongst themselves over the spoils.
If you look at the pattern of recent history you will understand that all of this is true. Why did Arafat turn down an offer of a Palestinian Homeland? Because the offer did not include the elimination of the Jewish state. Why did terrorists attack Turkey and kill Muslims? Because Turkey is a successful secular Islamic state. Why did Al Qaeda attack Spain? Because they want to reclaim Spain as part of their empire. Why did they attack the US (Beruit, WTC I, Khobar, African Embassies, Cole, WTC II)? Because they believe that if they can defeat us, the most powerful country in the world, the rest of the world will fall in place. Why would they believe they can defeat the USA? Because they believe they defeated the USSR, because they believe we do not have the will to fight, because we have not responded to past attacks.
How do we beat them? We take the war to them. We do not allow them time, space, and money to train and organize–where ever that is–Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Yemen, Phillipines, etc. We convince the 1 billion Muslims who are not Islamists to quit funding and tacitly supporting them. We respond with strength when attacked. In other words, we keep doing what we are doing only do it more, better, faster
Now if you still believe it is all about oil, I suggest you keep a look out for a book soon coming out by Dr. Habeck.
We have liberals/democrats in this country that have forced extreme envrionmental policies upon us. These policies prevent us from being energy independent. But then again, most liberals were born without the economic literacy gene.
There is no way for the US to be “energy independent”, without drastically changing our energy demands (and that ain’t gonna happen). Not even close. We use far, far more energy than all of our reserves could match, even if they were all on line today. Check out your own economic literacy gene. If you think this country can drill and burn its way to energy independence, then you are delusional.
As for GWB, remember his advice after 9/11? Go out and spend money. Not “conserve”, not “plan for energy independence”.
“The reason why we are there is simply because: it is about the oil. We have liberals/democrats in this country that have forced extreme envrionmental policies upon us. These policies prevent us from being energy independent. But then again, most liberals were born without the economic literacy gene.”
Thanks for the good laugh!
Agreed, oil is a very big part of this crazy war. But about those ‘enviro’ policies preventing us (the USA) from being energy independent, THAT is a real funny one!!! Do you know how to do arithmetic? Do you have ANY idea just how much energy this country consumes? We couldn’t even DREAM of providing for our unreal and voracious oil appetite with our domestic reserves (including ANWR–heck, make it 10 ANWRs). I think someone wasn’t born with the mathematical literacy gene.
For me it boils down to this: A few months ago they (Iraqi indigenous personnel) were riding Saddam’s head through the streets of Baghdad when the statue was toppled, symbolically ending his regime. A few weeks later they were celebrating his apprehension and arrest.
A few weeks after that they were hoisting the burned, murdered, mutilated, desicrated bodies of U.S. assets (“civilian contractors???” come on guys, we all know…) from a bridge while dancing a jig underneath.
I don’t understand that mindset. It is seldom seen in other cultures. It takes a more intelligent person than I to craft an appropriate way to interpret and respond that behavior.
What we don’t know is–were those the same people. I’d bet not. There were many within Iraq who had a lot to lose when SH went down. There were many more who had a lot to gain.
I don’t understand that mindset. It is seldom seen in other cultures. It takes a more intelligent person than I to craft an appropriate way to interpret and respond that behavior.
I don’t understand the mindset either, and I don’t respect it. But I really don’t think it was hard to predict. Which is why I thought it was beyond ridiculous when Bush said we’d have a pro-American democracy in Iraq within a year.
The problem, now, is the one you’re asking about: what now? Stay, and face endless bombings, a la Isreal, or leave, and watch an Islamic state take root?
We really should have insisted on a better explanation of how it was supposed to work before we went in. Now we’re damned if we do, and damned if we don’t.
I agree, it seems like a no-win situation at this point. I don’t see how we’re ever going to leave Iraq, whatever democratic government ends up arising could easily be toppled the minute our troops are gone. It seems as though they will have to be there for a long, long time. I don’t think Hamid Karzai could exist in Afghanistan without US protection, either.
I used to think that the best solution was to split the country up, let the Kurds have their own country in the north, and let the Sunnis and Shi’ites divide up what is left over. However, it seems likely in this case that the southern portion of Iraq would probably become a defacto province of Iran, creating an even larger power in the area, and of course the Turks don’t want to see an independent Kurdistan. So no go on that idea.
There’s no easy answer to this…
True. But a feature of a workable society is that there are semi-universal morays and “rules” of conduct for what is and is not acceptible- especially when the “normal” social infrastructure breaks down.
Example: Last summer we had a huge power failure. Here in Dearborn we closed our store, I went next door and helped the guys at the gas station sell water and ice at normal prices, helped out other people with generators and batteries and flashlights and hand-crank radios, etc. There was a general understanding of facilitation, commraderie and helpfulness. There wasn’t looting and rioting. Our society and cultrue functioned well under adverse cicumstances becasue, prior to that, we have been socialized to govern ourselves reasonably and interact peacefully in the spirit of mutual cooperation.
That is an effective society set against a backdrop of adversity. Sure, it wasn’t a war and we haven’t been subjected to decades of war- but I think it has good things to say about our culture and society. The guys next door are 1st gen immigrants from Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq and Syria. I speak a little Arabic, they speak a lot English. We are good friends, socialize and cooperate.
Iraq was a different culture altogether. Any attempt to govern their own society (like we did in Dearborn duirng the power failure) was squashed with an Iron fist by Saddam’s regime. It was a threat to his “cult of personality” Stalinesque dictatorship. As a result, when the shit hits the fan the people are like a bunch of unsupervised 11 year olds. They go wild. They seek rough justice and quick revenge. Life is cheap in some countries.
In the Ridley Scott dramatization of the the Somalia debacle, “Black Hawk Down”, there was a Somalia guerilla character who put it best- “In Somalia (or Iraq, Libya, Kenya, Spain, Afghnistan, Chad, Cote d’ Ivorie, Liberia, Guinea, Sierra Leona, Indonesia, etc, etc.) killing is negotiation…”
It’s just what they do. How do you help a society like this?
It’s just what they do. How do you help a society like this?
Short answer: Why should we?
Longer answer: Why should we, if it means 30 or 40 of us get killed doing it every month?
Real answer: If you figure it out, you can expect the Nobel Prize to show up in the mail shortly.
I don’t know if she is right but her theory (Dr. Mary Habeck) makes sense to me.
I agree with tri-bri2. This war is not about oil, we could have purchased all the oil we wanted, SH was looking for ways to sell his oil, but couldn’t legally because we stopped him. All we had to do was lift the sanction. Why go to war when we just buy it? We can argue about what the real reason was but that one doesn’t fly for me. It just doesn’t make sense… there is tons of oil out there and we don’t need to level a country to get it.
We are in a war against people who despise us and will always, no matter what we do. This is, unfortunately, kill or be killed. We could pull out of every Islamic country and put Iraq back the way it was and they will still want to kill us and eliminate Isreal. As the post said, even if they conquered the world and we all followed sharia, they would be killing eachother over who should have power. They already do that.
There is no way to “defend” ourselves unless we attack them and cause them to run. They will still plan, conspire and eventually attack again, but a retreat in Iraq or any other part of the world will only invite more violence here against civilians. As was pointed out, the people over there are there because that is what they do and I prefer they fight there rather than to have to engage them here on our soil. So far it has worked. Doesn’t mean they won’t eventually be successful but so far chasing them around Iraq and Afghanistan has kept them busy.
It’s a long time since I read so many examples of utter ignorance in one thread. The quote about muslims who aren’t islamists takes the prize, seconded by the one about Iraq never being built in the first place.
I love the bits about “why should we bother?”, which is a bit rich coming a year after the Coalition stormed in uninvited and against the will of most of the world.
The US had the goodwill of the world after 9/11, and should have concentrated on Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Instead, they were focused on iraq from the start and IMO held back ground troops for that adventure. Instead they used the Northern Alliance who were Taliban in white turbans as a proxy army, so as to save resources for Middle East. Net result is chaos and postopned elections in Afghanistan, the country in the hands of the warlords and mission size and location creep into Pakistan.
The only thing out-ranking that in terms of misadventure is of course Iraq. Now a magnet for terrorists and much more unstable than at any time since we backed Saddam to combat the rise of the Islamic Republic next door which was itself a backlash abgainst the Shah dictatorship which was supported by the West which even sold all the nuclear technology to Iran that we are now saying they have no need for. When does this wheel stop turning?
Reading this thread it’s easy to see how public opinion is so easily manipulated. Short term attitides, no respect or understanding of other cultures or history, and no interest in finding out. The only people holding Iraq from descending into chaos and who are calling for real elections are the Shiah - not the so-called democrats of the coaltion or their Vichy-esque CPA. when they are sold down the river to fit US election timetable, all bets will be off.
That’s not to say the stuff in Fallujah wasn’t horrific, but war is sh*t - that’s why you should avoid it at all costs and not jump in to serve a small interest agenda.
All the chest-beating about what we would do in revenge may well give you an idea about why Iraqis are so mad - they have lost around 10 000 civilians by well-informed estimates - although official coalition policy is not to count Iraqi dead, literally and philosophically. Try http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ if you’re interested.
Chaos is closing in, and the US is trying to brush over it at least until GWB gets re-elected in November. Will they make it - getting harder to be sure. The rest of the World is hoping for a Kerry victory and a chance to salvage what’s possible from current disaster.
No, I’m just in the rest of the world…