Oregon bomb plotter's mosque is set on fire

[spot]

As far as the other bit in bold, IIRC, it was the jihadis that initiated this conflict with the attack on African embassies, the Cole attack, and 9-11. If we pull out of Afghanistan, we hand them a huge propaganda victory that they will exploit ruthlessly, and use to continue attacks on the West. Any notion that they only fight because we are in Afghanistan is to be ignorant of what happened after the Soviets pulled out. It also begs the question: What would you have us do? Completely pull out of Afghanistan and not respond to terrorist attacks?

We’ve been handing them huge propaganda victories for 9 years!

No, we haven’t; not even close. A huge propaganda victory is claiming that the jihadists kicked the US out of Afghanistan, which is what OBL did after the Soviets left Afghanistan (despite the fact that it wasn’t true). The notion that the jihadists could take on a superpower and win was a very strong message that resonated with some, and is one of the things that allowed OBL to recruit as many people as he did for Al Qaeda. In fact, Al Qaeda lost a huge propaganda coup by being kicked out of Al Anbar province in Iraq by the Sunnis themselves, who came to pretty much despise the foreign jihadists in their midst. You are thinking tactically; Al Qaeda thinks strategically. Bombings here and there that kill a few people is not a strategic win; kicking the US out Afghanistan with its tail between its legs is a strategic win that would haunt us for decades.

I would have had us make completely unannounced attacks on Al Qaeda bases as soon as possible after 9-11 and repeatedly as the opportunities arose.

Great; super idea. One question: How are you going to derive the required intel to conduct such attacks? Surely you don’t think that we can ferret out everything from the air, do you? As wonderful as our technology is, it has its limits, and sometimes, you have to have boots on the ground. Afghanistan is one of those places. We tried the “unannounced” attacks after the African Embassy bombings, remember? How did that work out for us? We hit empty training camps, is how it worked out.

Taking over Afghanistan was stupid.

Until you consider the alternatives. Explain how we could have had as much success against Al Qaeda as we have had without resorting to the invasion of Afghanistan…you can’t because its not really possible. You can’t gather the required intel on a stone-age country from 30,000’ in the air. You need people on the ground.

Iraq was even stupider.

Iraq could have and should have waited.

Spot

[spot]

Your version of Islam. The Muslim version if Islam is that it has been in existence since Ismael. The prophets Moses, Noah, etc, are Islamic prophets. Jesus is an Islamic prophet, and Muslims consider him a fellow Muslim. The splits among the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic religions happened at the time of Christ. Those that believed Christ to be a form of “God” and developed the trinity became “Christians”, while Muslims maintained that their is only one god, but that Jesus is a prophet, So Christianity would be the youngest religion of the three. Muslims believe the prophet Muhammed was foretold in holy texts including the gospels as the prophet to follow Jesus, so it has “existed” since well before Mohammed.

Uh, I’m going to beg to differ on this. Islam did not exist as a religion until the Prophet Muhammad, and in fact, 622 AD is considered the first year of the Islamic era. There was no “Islamic” religion to split with Christianity and Judaism at the time of Christ; this is completely incorrect based upon the readings I have done on Islam (and I am referencing my college text book as I type, “Atlas of the Islamic World” by Francis Robinson). You are correct when you state that Islam considers Jesus and others to be prophets, and indeed, Allah and the Christian God are considered to be the same. In fact, Muslims consider both Jews and Christians to be “people of the book.” However, I reiterate, there was absolutely no Islamic faith until after the Prophet Muhummad; without him, there is no Islam, period. Foretelling a prophet does not create a religion.

Spot

[mojozenmaster]

I mentioned Hulagu Khan in an earlier post. The Mongolian Armies of Khan rode from the Steppes of Mongolia all the way to Baghdad around 1250 and in 90 days did what the crusades could not do for hundreds of years: they killed about 700,000 people, killed the chief muslim dude…the ‘caliph’ after foring him to watch his citizens being slaughtered, they rolled the caliph up in a rug and trampled his ass with their horses. He did not survive. The Mongols sacked the city, stole all sorts of shit and got out of town. Again, in 90 days…flooded it, ransacked it and burned it to the ground.

They did it by building channels diverting the Tigris river to flood Baghdad. Archeaologists say Iraq has never recovered from this devastation: what used to be fertile farmland, remains a desert nearly 800 years later. Whoever was left alive (about 70K), the Mongols marched somewhere else and made them eat pigs, or die. So, if the muslim world is mad at anyone maybe it should be the Mongolians.

[rruff]

So what you’re saying is that we need to be much more religious…

Most of the religious people I know (Christians) are very afraid of death. It isn’t about religion. IMO it is a matter of character and maturity, since death is something that will happen to all of us eventually. In the case of the terrorists, putting them in a hopeless desperate position, is not an insignificant factor.

[mojozenmaster]

Also, as I recall, the Mongols preferred not to fight at close quarters against muslims because they did not want their bodies contaminated by even one drop of muslim blood. They rolled the caliph in a rug and trampled him because they did not want his blood contaminating the soil of their newly conquered land. They split and named it a vassal state, part of the mongol empire

Most of this is from memory and is pretty accurate. So when I say liberals need to study their history books it is because I have a feeling if they did, they would understand Islam a little bit better. Of course it is likely that liberals never learned history in the first place and a liberals idea of “history” are things that happened no more than 100 years ago.

[big_kahuna]

Your version of Islam. The Muslim version if Islam is that it has been in existence since Ismael. The prophets Moses, Noah, etc, are Islamic prophets. Jesus is an Islamic prophet, and Muslims consider him a fellow Muslim. The splits among the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic religions happened at the time of Christ. Those that believed Christ to be a form of “God” and developed the trinity became “Christians”, while Muslims maintained that their is only one god, but that Jesus is a prophet, So Christianity would be the youngest religion of the three. Muslims believe the prophet Muhammed was foretold in holy texts including the gospels as the prophet to follow Jesus, so it has “existed” since well before Mohammed.

I guess I could reply that this is “your version of Islam,” while I’m dealing strictly with the historical record, free from ideological slant. It’s quite obvious that Islam is a corruption of Catholicism, and it’s a fact that Mohammed was in close contact with many Christian communities in the region near to Jerusalem, Mecca and Medina, even to the point of being given sanctuary among several of them when he was being persecuted by leaders in what would come to be known as the Arabian Peninsula. Mohammed was illiterate, and gradually came to form the basis of Islam (Arabic, meaning “submission”) over time, gaining followers who’d take down his words, or the words of Allah, actually, when they were given to Mohammed, according to the history of Islam. Initially, the early Suras in the Qur’an were quite peaceful and filled with the need to, in Rodney King’s famous words, “just get along” with everybody. But as Mohammed began to gain military power, the Suras (the literal, unexpurgated word of God, according to Muslims) became quite a bit more violent and rigid. The Qur’an, with its Suras, and the Hadith (the record of the words of the Prophet plus various traditions, sayings and laws) combine to form the canon that regulates Islam and its five pillars of faith.

The fact still remains that of the three major monotheistic faiths Islam is the youngest and still least-formed and mature. It demonstrates that lack of maturity in several different ways, including in its urging–according to the reading of Islam by numerous so-called ‘defenders of the faith’–of Jihad Bil Saif (“Jihad by the sword”) and in its inability to come to a single overarching message that can be reliably delivered by recognized and widely-acclaimed Islamic scholars and religious authorities. As I’ve said, there’s zero chance of any America-based Muslim authorities of any note having the ability to sway overseas or foreign Muslim opinion in *Dar Al Islam *because these authorities in America are living in *Dar Al Harb, *or lands where Islam hasn’t yet conquered or come to dominate, to use a less militaristic term. This fact is a given on the Muslim street, by the way, as I found during my academic sabbatical in the Middle East in preparing my thesis for my MA in homeland security.

[rruff]

What does the siege of Baghdad by the Mongols in 1250 AD have to do with anything?

[mojozenmaster]

Part of me thinks if you have to ask why, you will never understand, but I will try…

Everything.

It proves that an aggressive and well planned attack executed by a determined attacking force can change history. Do not forget that the muslims were among the fiercest warriors in the world at that time, The Mongol Army, numbering about 50,000 trekked thousands of miles, smacked down the assassins in Afghanistan along the way, got to Baghdad, killed at least 700,000 people, burnt the place to the ground and destroyed Demascus on the ride home.

If you do not think that this is extremely impressive, you need to have your head examined.

These wars and battles are studied in scrupulous detail at war colleges around the world. You do know there are such things as War Colleges, right?

[rruff]

You are truly amazing.

So who do you propose we wipe out and slaughter… Mongol style?

[mojozenmaster]

**You are truly amazing. **

Thank You Homie. If I did not already have such a cool sig-line this would be mine and I would give you credit.

As for what I propose on how to deal with the current problem, I think I need to think about it for a week or two but it but it probably involves Snipers with .50 sniper rfiles, spies, tomohawk cruise missiles and laser guided bombs taking out high value targets… and dropping a daisy-cutter or two on the way out of town…

[big_kahuna]

Who are really the terrorists here?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...plot,0,3702565.story

My guess is it’s CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations), which probably ordered that the mosque fire be set so that it could advocate for precisely the actions laid out in the story below:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cair-oregon-mosque-arson-prompts-call-to-protect-muslims-110942284.html

CAIR: Oregon Mosque Arson Prompts Call to Protect Muslims

SEATTLE, Nov. 28, 2010 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ – The Washington State chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-WA) today called on the FBI and state law enforcement authorities to step up protection for the region’s Muslim community after an intentionally-set fire damaged a mosque in Oregon.

Fire officials say the Sunday morning blaze damaged the Salman Al-Farisi Islamic Center in Corvallis, Ore., a house of worship once attended by a recently-arrested terror suspect. The FBI is investigating the incident.

**SEE: Fire Damages Mosque Bomb Suspect Attended **(My guess is it was, smartly, set by the same people now advocating for "protection for Muslims against a possible anti-Muslim backlash…which still hasn’t occurred, from what I can tell)

http://tinyurl.com/26fomak

**CAIR: Seattle’s Somali Community Fears Backlash from Bomb Plot **(I’m sure they do. Remind the media to report on all those angry retaliatory attacks taking place against the Somali community around the country, would y’all?)
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/110937124.html

**Portland’s Somali Community Unites to Condemn Alleged Pioneer Courthouse Square Bomb Plot **(Seems like the smart thing to do, and they’ve demonstrated they currently have a firm grasp of the obvious, too)

http://tinyurl.com/28ljd9r

“Just as American Muslims repudiate any act that would threaten our nation’s safety and security, **we ask our fellow citizens to reject any attacks on Muslims or their religious institutions,” said CAIR-WA Executive Director Arsalan Bukhari. **(I’d reject them forthwith, if any were going on. You guys noted any, besides this very suspicious act of “arson,” lately?)

[chainpin]

Funny how this shit plays out just like clockwork huh?

CAIR false flag events are very effective in drumming up sympathy for the oppressed muslims in this country.

[Dapper_Dan]

Or you could accept as I stated that it is Islamic view of Islam, which would also include that it is the most refined of the three religions since it includes the latest refinements as revealed by God. But, it is clear that they consider the Quran a refinement of that which has always existed, not a new religion.

[rruff]

As for what I propose on how to deal with the current problem, I think I need to think about it for a week or two but it but it probably involves Snipers with .50 sniper rfiles, spies, tomohawk cruise missiles and laser guided bombs taking out high value targets… and dropping a daisy-cutter or two on the way out of town…

That doesn’t sound very Mongol like. To have the Mongol effect, we’d need to utterly destroy their towns… rape, kill, pillage, and burn. And since our real enemy has no location or buildings or government or anything, we’d have to just wipe out every Muslim country. Then we’d have to outlaw the religion entirely, and execute anyone suspected of practicing it anywhere in the world, etc. Eventually… after many years… our enemies might just give up… but I doubt it.

Is that what you think we will do? If not, then what does the Mongol siege of Baghdad (and most of Islam at the time) have to do with anything, now?

[dave_w]

What do you think about the point that (crusades) through overwhelming force, Muslims were pushed into a defensive posture, thereby granting the world a few hundred years of relative peace? Is that what happened? Obviously it would not be Christians in a crusade, but could it happen again? What would it take?

[mojozenmaster]

Is that what you think we will do? If not, then what does the Mongol siege of Baghdad (and most of Islam at the time) have to do with anything, now?

They put those fuckers out of business for a very long time by kicking ass. And since we have not learned how to kick ass, this is what we get: “Inspire” courtesy of Your Friends in Al Qeada:

http://publicintelligence.net/complete-inspire-al-qaeda-in-the-arabian-peninsula-aqap-magazine/

Oh…I’ll bet you think I am making this shit up…sucker!!

[mojozenmaster]

What about this:

.

[mojozenmaster]

Or this:

Guess what sucker, these images are from July 2010 Al Qeada “Inspire” Website. You can make believe as along as you want that these people are not extremely dangerous and extremely serious about being extremely dangerous. You could always offer a homestay…

[Former_User]

Most of this is from memory and is pretty accurate. So when I say liberals need to study their history books it is because I have a feeling if they did, they would understand Islam a little bit better. Of course it is likely that liberals never learned history in the first place and a liberals idea of “history” are things that happened no more than 100 years ago.

1. do you honestly believe that voting for the liberal party means that people don’t know anything about history? that they somehow went to different schools or watched different shows or read different books than someone who pulls the R lever?

2. again, it’s not clear to me who exactly the states is supposed to get all mongolian on. you’re president, i give you a trillion dollars. who do you annihilate? indonesia? yemen? saudia arabia? all muslims everywhere?

i think you need to read a little more lao tzu and a little less genghis khan . . .

-mike

[Former_User]

guess I could reply that this is “your version of Islam,” while I’m dealing strictly with the historical record, free from ideological slant. It’s quite obvious that Islam is a corruption of Catholicism, and it’s a fact that Mohammed was in close contact with many Christian communities in the region near to Jerusalem, Mecca and Medina, even to the point of being given sanctuary among several of them when he was being persecuted by leaders in what would come to be known as the Arabian Peninsula. Mohammed was illiterate, and gradually came to form the basis of Islam (Arabic, meaning “submission”) over time, gaining followers who’d take down his words, or the words of Allah, actually, when they were given to Mohammed, according to the history of Islam. Initially, the early Suras in the Qur’an were quite peaceful and filled with the need to, in Rodney King’s famous words, “just get along” with everybody. But as Mohammed began to gain military power, the Suras (the literal, unexpurgated word of God, according to Muslims) became quite a bit more violent and rigid. The Qur’an, with its Suras, and the Hadith (the record of the words of the Prophet plus various traditions, sayings and laws) combine to form the canon that regulates Islam and its five pillars of faith.

The fact still remains that of the three major monotheistic faiths Islam is the youngest and still least-formed and mature. It demonstrates that lack of maturity in several different ways, including in its urging–according to the reading of Islam by numerous so-called ‘defenders of the faith’–of Jihad Bil Saif (“Jihad by the sword”) and in its inability to come to a single overarching message that can be reliably delivered by recognized and widely-acclaimed Islamic scholars and religious authorities. As I’ve said, there’s zero chance of any America-based Muslim authorities of any note having the ability to sway overseas or foreign Muslim opinion in *Dar Al Islam *because these authorities in America are living in *Dar Al Harb, *or lands where Islam hasn’t yet conquered or come to dominate, to use a less militaristic term. This fact is a given on the Muslim street, by the way, as I found during my academic sabbatical in the Middle East in preparing my thesis for my MA in homeland security.

how is it ‘obvious’ that islam is a corruption of christianity? would you describe christianity as a corruption of judaism? or buddhism as ‘corrupt’ hinduism?

your citing of evolutionary logic here feels a bit awkward - would you then say that judaism (or hell, zoroastrianism) is another thousand years more ‘developed’ than christianity? and that aboriginal animism is the most developed of all?

the lack of a central message or political unity in islam is sort of meaningless if your reference point is christianity - when you thrown in everything from snake handlers to eastern orthodox to african evangelicals, it’s a mess. and it’s been politically riven for centuries - martin luther, church of england, etc etc.

perhaps more to the point might be the fact that islam currently flourishes in shitty parts of the world. you show me a kid who’s looking forward to a long, happy life of satisfying relationships, rewarding work, and fulfilling hobbies, and i’ll show you a kid who’s got no interest in strapping on a suicide vest.

-mike