Oregon bomb plotter's mosque is set on fire

The Coffee Shop
61

The first issue was the kid who wanted to blow up the van and kill hundreds of people. Trying to burn a mosque was not very well played by anyone = not a good idea, but as BK noted, CAIR people have a way of doing these things for attention. I don’t know… but again, not a good idea. I think for every foiled attack there are perhaps 5 more in the works. The bad guys are very creative, calculating and they know how to wait. By good intelligence gathering and some good luck we have been able foil other dangerous plots. I think if there is another 9/11 kind of event the problem will be dealt with…maybe…once and for all. As for what it entails, I don’t know for sure because I’m just a little troll living underneath a little bridge…but I suspect it would be severe. What was that they said about 9/11: “Never Again.” So if it does happen again the response will hopefully deal with the problem. And after that I suspect we will see a lot of racial profiling and reprisals.

To understand it better, pick up the book The 48 Laws of Power and read Law 15 “Crush Your Enemy Totally”

“All great leaders since Moses have known that a feared enemy must be crushed completely. Sometimes they have learned this the hard way. If one ember is left alight, no matter how dimly it smolders, a fire will eventually break out. More is lost through going halfway than through total annihilation. The enemy will recover and seek revenge. Crush him, not only in body but in spirit”

As I said before I would much rather have peace on earth. I’d rather be hippie than a hater. But the current reality is that there are some people you just can’t reason with and the only thing they will ever understand is a brutal ass kicking…like Helegu Khan did to Baghdad back in 1250 or so.

62

This is what the jihadi network (AQ, etc.) wants for all of us, though they’re appallingly short on details and concrete plans for government, once one begins to drill down into their worldview, which–to tell the truth–is strongly reminiscent of Marxism/Leninism in that regard.

What the radicals want is to be able to live their own strict and anal version of religion without outside influence and interference. They blame their own lack of viability on “evil” outside consumer influences… some imaginary, and some very real. The only mature approach would be to let them have their society… which would slowly fall apart from within… as all repressive regimes do. Our taking over Afghanistan merely gave them an easy target. As long as we keep fighting them, they’ll keep fighting back, and we will never “win”. They are better at this game than we will ever be.

That’s true, but only partly. What the jihadis want is to re-establish the Caliphate under Shariah law, and they want the Caliphate to rule over the entire Dar Al-Islam, including lands that were once Muslim, but are not any longer; this is a key part of the jihadi philosphy. The notion that they just want a small hunk of land to call their own and rule as they see fit is not true. This is why Hamas, which is jihadist at its core, will never, ever recognize Israel’s right to exist: It was once Muslim land and as such, must be returned to Muslim rule.

As far as the other bit in bold, IIRC, it was the jihadis that initiated this conflict with the attack on African embassies, the Cole attack, and 9-11. If we pull out of Afghanistan, we hand them a huge propaganda victory that they will exploit ruthlessly, and use to continue attacks on the West. Any notion that they only fight because we are in Afghanistan is to be ignorant of what happened after the Soviets pulled out. It also begs the question: What would you have us do? Completely pull out of Afghanistan and not respond to terrorist attacks?

Spot

Spot on. :wink: Remember Bin Laden’s earliest (well known) pronouncement included several historical references, his “the tragedy of Andalusia”, a reference to an area that was Christian, then Muslim, then Christian again…not acceptable. An interesting point is that there are many Muslims with very little formal education, but they know the history of their religion in this world minute detail. It’s why these historical references are so meaningful to them, while westerners don’t get it at all.

63

Why should I have to live in a world with such intolerant people?

That was all kinds of awesome.

64

“I don’t recall any of the Nazi leaders proclaiming their Christianity.”

This is an accurate statement. Europeans, particularly Hitler and much of Germany were largely secular. Hitler is noted several times in his writings that Christianity was an affront to natural law.

Well, it is a stretch indeed (and yes, 70 years ago is a while ago, relatively speaking) but Hitler did believe Aryans were created by god, and he believed in Jesus, and thought Jesus was an aryan (which really makes no sense). So, yeah, it’s a loose argument at best.

And I don’t believe Nazi’s did their evil because they were Christians, I was just pointing out that you don’t have to go back to the Crusades to find things Christians did that was pretty bad.

65

Spot on. :wink: Remember Bin Laden’s earliest (well known) pronouncement included several historical references, his “the tragedy of Andalusia”, a reference to an area that was Christian, then Muslim, then Christian again…not acceptable. An interesting point is that there are many Muslims with very little formal education, but they know the history of their religion in this world minute detail. It’s why these historical references are so meaningful to them, while westerners don’t get it at all.

Many still fight amongst each other over the succession of the Caliphs and whether or not Ali should have been the actual successor to the Prophet, and that was hundreds and hundreds of years ago. The tragedy of Andalusia (Spain, in Arabic “al-Andalus”) refers to Charles Martel, “the hammer,” and his defeat of the army of Abdul Rahman at the Battle of Tours/Battle of Poitiers, which led to the eventual expulsion of the Muslims and their government, in large part, from the Iberian Peninsula, which was as far north as the Muslim armies under the caliphate of the day managed to push into Europe at that time. Later, in 1683, the Polish King John III Sobieski, leading an army of Polish, Austrian and German forces, managed to repel the armies of the Muslim Ottoman Empire at the Battle of Vienna, which had managed to push into Europe from that direction over the centuries since the Battle of Tours/Battle of Poitiers. Basically, if it hadn’t been for Martel and his armies and John III Sobieski and his armies, they might still be speaking Arabic and be of the Muslim faith in Europe.

66

"I was just pointing out that you don’t have to go back to the Crusades to find things Christians did that was pretty bad. "

I hear what you’re saying. I think its important to note that a lot of bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, not by Christianity itself. The same argument could be made for Islam as well, but the Koran explicitly endorses Jihad on unbelievers, whereas the Bible does not endorse violence of this sort.

67

“All great leaders since Moses have known that a feared enemy must be crushed completely. Sometimes they have learned this the hard way. If one ember is left alight, no matter how dimly it smolders, a fire will eventually break out. More is lost through going halfway than through total annihilation. The enemy will recover and seek revenge. Crush him, not only in body but in spirit”

I understand that very well. The problem is that we’ve chosen an enemy and a fight that is impossible to win. So we are suckers, dupes, idiots.

Actually it is hard for me to believe that the PTB are that dumb… which leads to the obvious conclusion that the War on Terror is something they actually wanted… for some reason. There could be many, but I’d just be speculating.

So if it does happen again the response will hopefully deal with the problem.

It won’t because it can’t.

68

i say these are differences of degree, not kind. ETA are a terrorist group who frequently time things to cause ‘terror’ but not death. when i lived in spain, they once detonated a car bomb in an underground garage just a few minutes after the king’s motorcade left. their announcement was along the lines of, “we could’ve blown it sooner. . .”

is that still terrorism?

-mike

p.s - i’ll admit i haven’t done any reading on the events alleged here, just speculating on either event as a hypothetical.

69

As far as the other bit in bold, IIRC, it was the jihadis that initiated this conflict with the attack on African embassies, the Cole attack, and 9-11. If we pull out of Afghanistan, we hand them a huge propaganda victory that they will exploit ruthlessly, and use to continue attacks on the West. Any notion that they only fight because we are in Afghanistan is to be ignorant of what happened after the Soviets pulled out. It also begs the question: What would you have us do? Completely pull out of Afghanistan and not respond to terrorist attacks?

We’ve been handing them huge propaganda victories for 9 years! I would have had us make completely unannounced attacks on Al Qaeda bases as soon as possible after 9-11 and repeatedly as the opportunities arose. Taking over Afghanistan was stupid. Iraq was even stupider.

70

“Well, it is a stretch indeed (and yes, 70 years ago is a while ago, relatively speaking)”

Why are we going back 70 years in an attempt to find violent Christians or Christian groups? Presumably everyone is aware of the horrendous violence between the Cathiolics and Protestants in Ireland that began in the 60s and ostensibly ended in the late 90s. Maybe try the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who forcefully convert people to Christianity and have been one of the most active terrorist groups in recent history. How about the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda who use child soldiers, massacres, rapes, torture, etc and carry Rosary beads into battle while reciting Bible passages? Maybe here at home with the army of God who bombs abortion clinics, or the Concerned Christians who were deported from israel after planning bombing attacks there, or Hutaree, a Christian militia group that was teaching the use of IEDs has had 9 members indicted on charges of sedition, teaching the use of explosives, and possessing firearms during a crime of violence?

There’s no need to go back 70 years to find violent Christian groups.

71

We’ve been handing them huge propaganda victories for 9 years! I would have had us make completely unannounced attacks on Al Qaeda bases as soon as possible after 9-11 and repeatedly as the opportunities arose. Taking over Afghanistan was stupid. Iraq was even stupider.

Well you’re a nutbag, but what you are promoting is along the lines of an approach that I and many others(like Biden) agree with. Damn, now I have to discern whether you are not a complete nutbag, or perhaps I am somewhat of one.

72

The answer, of course, is that they’d still be running things, just as the regime in North Korea will remain in power as long as such people are willing to not only be the lords among the ruins but also to use whatever means would be necessary in order to maintain that lordship, including the mass starvation and killing of their own people.

Christ! You talk about the “long view” yet expect everything to turn around in a year or two! The USSR and China were both starved by their ideology and corruption and forced by circumstances to change. It has happened throughout history.

And just because we might think they can tolerate a higher level of pain than we can doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands, cash in our remaining chips and just move on and hope that our own lives will be free of nastiness, brutishness and lack of length. That’s hardly an existence worth living, cowering as one might in a little hidey-hole, wouldn’t you say?

Funny that you think that is the alternative. The greater courage would be to simply ignore them unless they plan or execute an attack. We didn’t need to take over a couple countries just so we’d have some land to commandeer and defend.

The big advantage they have is that they aren’t afraid to die. That makes them much better at the game. We on the other hand are terrified of death, and so any danger we face (however tiny) is a really big deal.

73

**

The big advantage they have is that they aren’t afraid to die. That makes them much better at the game. We on the other hand are terrified of death, and so any danger we face (however tiny) is a really big deal.

So what you’re saying is that we need to be much more religious…

74

In any case, all these goings on in Corvallis and Portland can’t hold a candle to what happens in those towns in the S. M. Stirling novels I’m reading. :wink:

Strangely addictive, aren’t they?

75

The problem is that we’ve chosen an enemy and a fight that is impossible to win.

They chose us, we did not choose them.

You are very wrong with this observation. If the radical muslims keep it up and keep being a threat to Western Civilization, the day will come when we really do lay down the law. The enemy will lose. The only reason the bad guys are still around is because large portions of the western world have been infected with liberal ideology and do not have the stomach for severe retaliation against the bad guys. The poetic notions that all religions can join together in some mystical union or healing of souls is not going to happen when one certain religion prevents this from happening. And, doing nothing about it is not going to happen either. The day will come when the bad guys get it so I would say the bad guys have chosen the wrong enemy.

I know this sounds harsh, hawkish and full of hater rhetoric, but it is the truth. If you don’t believe me, go back and read your history books. Military history specifically. That quote “More is lost through going halfway than through total annihilation” is an absolute historical fact. Don’t think for a moment that we have magically arrived at this certain point in time where ‘cooler heads prevail’ because that is a myth and a lie.

76

i’m going to disagree. i think history is full of far more examples of peoples/cultures/religions meeting and skirmishing before finally finding some way of getting along or ignoring each other than of examples of “total annihilation.”

-mike

77

Your version of Islam. The Muslim version if Islam is that it has been in existence since Ismael. The prophets Moses, Noah, etc, are Islamic prophets. Jesus is an Islamic prophet, and Muslims consider him a fellow Muslim. The splits among the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic religions happened at the time of Christ. Those that believed Christ to be a form of “God” and developed the trinity became “Christians”, while Muslims maintained that their is only one god, but that Jesus is a prophet, So Christianity would be the youngest religion of the three. Muslims believe the prophet Muhammed was foretold in holy texts including the gospels as the prophet to follow Jesus, so it has “existed” since well before Mohammed.

78

Why are we going back 70 years in an attempt to find violent Christians or Christian groups? Presumably everyone is aware of the horrendous violence between the Cathiolics and Protestants in Ireland that began in the 60s and ostensibly ended in the late 90s. Maybe try the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who forcefully convert people to Christianity and have been one of the most active terrorist groups in recent history. How about the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda who use child soldiers, massacres, rapes, torture, etc and carry Rosary beads into battle while reciting Bible passages? Maybe here at home with the army of God who bombs abortion clinics, or the Concerned Christians who were deported from israel after planning bombing attacks there, or Hutaree, a Christian militia group that was teaching the use of IEDs has had 9 members indicted on charges of sedition, teaching the use of explosives, and possessing firearms during a crime of violence?

There’s no need to go back 70 years to find violent Christian groups.

Because little of the above happened/affected suburbia USA, the right-wing zealots here in the LR conveniently forget that it happens. Classic ostrich defense.

79

“So Christianity would be the youngest religion of the three”

Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity.

80

I know this sounds harsh, hawkish and full of hater rhetoric, but it is the truth. If you don’t believe me, go back and read your history books. Military history specifically. That quote “More is lost through going halfway than through total annihilation” is an absolute historical fact. Don’t think for a moment that we have magically arrived at this certain point in time where ‘cooler heads prevail’ because that is a myth and a lie.

Put another way, the Crusades bought the last 400 years or so of Islamic peace in the Western World. Not a bad investment, right? :wink: