What is your opinion of OptygenHP, is it worth $61 per bottle?
I kind of have a hard time taking 1st Endurance seriously since they charge $6 for a flask of sugar water.
Dollar for dollar, that flask of “sugar water” is actually cheaper than most other gels. It’s $6 for the equivalent of 4 gels. That works out to $1.50 per gel, which is quite cheap. Plus it saves on packaging. They also offer the big jug as well to further save. I like that they don’t make standalone gels in the traditional wrappers, since it’s a HUGE amount of waste. The EFS liquid shot is also really a nice consistency since there are NO gelling agents. At IMAZ in November, it was the first time I’d ever been able to get in that many calories during the marathon. Before I could get in one or two gels at most, but then I just couldn’t stomach them. So, on balance, it’s actually relatively cheap for gels…
But that wasn’t really your question, so I digress (or digressed). Is Optygen worth the money? There’s research out there that says that the ingredients are basically the same as placebo. And there’s research out there that says that the ingredients do a good job of combating systemic inflammation, which is a major limiter in terms of recovery and overall stress on your body. It’s probably one of the hardest things to measure the effectiveness of, since you are basically trying to evaluate your baseline over a long period of time. Do I recover X% faster is what I think you are generally looking for. I think it makes a difference. But I also think I do a good job of recovery in general. Would Optygen alone make up for eating crap, never working out trigger points, etc? Of course not. To me it reminds me a bit of the slogan you always used to hear with breakfast cereals “XYZ, part of a complete breakfast.” I think Optygen falls into that class. It’s a support product. Like a multi-vitamin. If we all ate perfectly, and got massage every day, and took an ice bath everyday, and did everything, it would probably be redundant. But I think it certainly has helped me to manage a lot of training. I found that - overall - I would say I had more consistency within my training. I don’t think my best sessions were much better. But I think my “off” sessions were less off. I.e., I think I was more consistent. I know a lot of people who use it. I started using it BEFORE I became sponsored by FE based off what I’d heard from other folks who also were not sponsored and also some who were. I’m an N=1 example, and not really much of a control within that, since it’s almost impossible to control for. But there are a LOT of N=1 folks who think it’s helped them.
My biggest advice would to try it during a period when you can be consistent in your training. Nothing is worse than trying to evaluate something’s impact when nothing is consistent. If that is the story of your life, then pretty much everything will be a gamble. But if you can get in at least two weeks of consistent training, I think you would notice a difference in terms of recovery from hard sessions.
My immediate response would be “NO”. Although I have no first hand experience with it.
I once read an article which talked about supplements and drugs. The article went on to state, “supplements are supplements and drugs are drugs”. Both are created for a reason…
Supplements are to “supplement” dietary needs, while drugs are designed to alter your bodies chemistry (to paraphrase the message). There is a reason why athletes in all sports continue to risk taking illegal substances…the “drugs” work and provide immediate, tangible results. The supplements just make your pee more expensive…
snake oil
.
I have to agree to jordan here. I’m not sponsored by FE, but I wanted to try the stuff in the build-up to IMWI. So far so good. I’m only using the regular stuff right now though. I’d like to give the HP a try when this bottle runs out. I definately feel a lot more consistant in terms of having less days where I feel like trash. I eat fairly well and use other modes of recovery in addition to this though. I think the best way to put it is that every workout I’ve had since using it has either met or exceeded what I had expected to do.
snake oil
notice the positive replies
exactly the sort of things people notice from snake oil.
vague bs.
supplements are not designed to supplement your diet. supplements are designed to take your money. its been done 1000 times. Find some article or tradition that suggests some exotic ingredient has a positive health or performance benefit.
put some of said ingredient in a pill, bottle it up, sell it with ridiculous advertising. In fact, often supplement companies wont even bother putting the claimed ingredient in their stuff. they don’t HAVE to, no government body tests this shit.
look at the claims of this bullshit:
-Increases Endurance and Performance
-Increased strength
-Reduces Lactic Acid
-Increases oxygen utilization
-Increase in VO2 Max
-Increase in Time to Exhaustion
-Increases Anaerobic threshold
-Improved exercise capacity
-Increases Maximal Oxygen uptake
-30% - 50% increase in Oxygen Utilization
-Increase ratio of ATP by 45% - 55%
-Enhances Endurance
-Increase in ATP production
can’t you see they just took every sciency endurance sport buzzword and tossed it in there?
don’t be a fool
I totally respect your opinion. And I do wish that FE would change some of the claims, but at the same time, that’s the way the game is played in the supplement industry. They’d sell more to folks like you and I if they had more “reasonable” labels, but then they would lose business to people that just buy off the label, and I think there are many more of the latter than there are “skeptics.”
Now, maybe I’m an idiot (it’s very possible). And maybe every other of the athlete’s that I talked to that paid for optygen is an idiot (also possible). As I said, if you look at the core ingredients and the way they are supposed to work - i.e. if you look at the studies on the ingredients - I think it’s quite good. Like you, I prefer things I can “touch” like Crr, Cda, etc. They are much easier to measure.
A huge part of the problem is money for research. Did you ever wonder why they are ALWAYS finding yet another magic property of aspirin? There was one in the news the other day. It’s because BAYER just pumps continuous money into research. Most smaller companies are reliant on previously existing research, smaller private trials, etc.
Now, I definitely agree with you about the supplement industry as a whole. Every day I rue the day that Orin Hatch decided that we didn’t need to have FDA oversight for these products. Thanks Orin, I really didn’t want to government messing around and making sure I wasn’t accidentally taking steroid precursors… However, at the same time, I recognize that FDA guidelines are set around a very “average” population, and in some cases - like the stupid food pyramid - are so outdated as almost be harmful. Yes, let’s pump an overly obese population full of white bread, pasta, etc… Let’s imagine, for a moment, though, that we are just talking about FDA recommendations for simple calories. 2000 calories is the recommended daily intake. But based on what? Body mass? Activity level? Etc. This is the sort of catch-all that you have at the other end of the spectrum.
“Vague” is not always BS. I am not a celiac - gluten doesn’t kill me. But I - generally - don’t eat any of it. And I feel much better than when I used to eat a lot. Same with dairy. Is that all in my head? Maybe. We could delve into the placebo effect, except now there is research that says even the placebo effect itself is not real. So who knows. I think the same thing about organic food - though even if there were no difference between regular and organic food, I’d still do it for the sake of animal husbandry and the environment.
Of course, I now feel myself a bit like I’m saying all the things that snake oil salesmen say. Mostly things that aren’t really related to the product at hand, so I’d like to stop doing that. Looping back around, as I said, there is a study that shows Optygen does not do anything (I believe it was a 2week clinical field trial? There is a link on the forum). But no study is perfect, and that one certainly wasn’t. Nor is the research in the supporting cases equally bulletproof. BUT there IS research that shows positive effects (I’m admittedly too lazy to actually go find them right now) from Rhodiola and Cordyceps, the two primary ingredients in Optygen, in research that is not in any way related to or funded by FirstEndurance. I’ve read the Journal of Applied Physiology study on Cordyceps. There are several articles on Rhodiola (some not yet in print) which are also very positive. But again, I’m sure mistakes were made, as they almost always are.
One thing FE does gurantee that what they say is in the bottle is in the bottle and what is not is not. So that is one thing you do not have to worry about with First Endurance.
Jordan,
It is true that these products are not regulated by the FDA … and frankly, it would likely be a waste of taxpayer money to do so.
The issue of not doing proper studies is the decision of the producer … there has never been a ban against them doing well controlled studies IF there really was a demonstrable positive effect. Using anecdote rather than study plays right into the hand of “snake oil sales” because you’ll always find some who adamantly are convinced something works despite lack of proof. The control arm (sugar pill) of FDA studies will often show 30-50% reported positive response … therein lies the true reason these products don’t want a real comparative trial. The meaningless anecdote is what gives them their sales pitch … and obviously many are ready to take the bait ( I mean product).
Dave
I can’t speak about OptygenHP. The Missus -Tex and I have been taking Optygen since early June, mostly b/c we had 2 70.3s in June and were going to follow that up with training to get ready for IMMOO. We wanted to try it out and see how it worked.
Snake Oil or not, my experience has been that I have had fewer ‘bad’ workouts and have been more ‘on’ in more workouts that ‘off.’ The same has been true for the other 1/2. Like Rappstar, I would like to think that we do a good job of eating good foods, focusing on post workout recovery and nutrition, and generally being smart about recovery and training. I do not have the luxury of sleeping in, working out, going home for a nap, and then training again. I wake up early, work out, go to work, work out again, and do it all again the next day.
So, my experience of 1 (2 if you count the Missus) is positive. Admittedly, I am a little skeptical on some of the claims, but as I said…it seems to work well. I have an athlete who has been taking it for about 6 weeks or so, and he’s been doing really well on his workouts also. I’d like to take all of the credit for him, but he also does a good job of making smart food and recovery choices…so combined with all of that, things are going well.
Is the $6 worth it for the sugar water? Yes it is…for the reasons that Rappstar mentioned.
Well said, Dave. FE does fund their own studies (which of course opens up a whole other can of worms about objectivity), but certainly they do invest in trying to prove the efficacy of the products they make, which is a marked change from many other companies. There is a research page for each product; here is the one for Optygen: http://www.firstendurance.com/nutrition/control/product/~product_id=80597/~page=RESEARCH Having not had a chance to read all of the research, and being admittedly inadequately equipped to understand it all even if I did, I guess I am forced to rely on anecdotes. Furthermore, I think that my own anecdotes perhaps serve as a bit of a reality check on what is the unfortunate state of advertising in this particular industry.
There are a couple things I can say for certain about First Endurance, many of which stand in stark contrast with the rest of the industry as a whole:
- what they say is in the bottle/jar etc. is in fact what’s in there - guaranteed
- they have research to back up all of their products. Is it flawless? No. But I don’t think any research - positive or negative - is flawless, as we have seen with the subsequent removal of products like Vioxx, which went through FDA trails. Same with the legion of side-effects that are listed at the end of most pharma ads - “this will lower your cholesterol, but it also might kill you.” I.e., my point is that every test has holes, even when it’s funded by millions of dollars.
- you will not fail a WADA doping test (guarantee of no cross contamination by banned substances - this is a big one if you are a pro athlete, even if you are just looking for an electrolyte drink)
- thought and care is put into making something that is an improvement on the status quo. I look at the EFS liquid shot, for example, and the lack of gelling agents - which shows thought went into “how can we make something better” - and the bulk-only packaging - which I think shows a level of care on a big-picture level, which is important to me. I’m also about to test the new EFS drink; they’ve eliminated all artificial sweeteners, based on feedback from athletes and consumers. And made some other changes, all in the name of making the product better.
The state of that industry is in disarray, though I will say that the FDA seems unfortunately to have devolved into an organization dedicated to proving “this is NOT bad for you” rather than “this is good for you,” but maybe that’s to be expected given the state of health in this country.
Anyway, I know this post in particular doesn’t address the topic of Optygen, but I hope that it does shed some light on FE as a company.
-Increases Endurance and Performance
-Increased strength
-Reduces Lactic Acid
-Increases oxygen utilization
-Increase in VO2 Max
-Increase in Time to Exhaustion
-Increases Anaerobic threshold
-Improved exercise capacity
-Increases Maximal Oxygen uptake
-30% - 50% increase in Oxygen Utilization
-Increase ratio of ATP by 45% - 55%
-Enhances Endurance
-Increase in ATP production
Wow, that stuff does EVERYTHING! AMAZING! I thought it was totally unrealistic for me to qualify for Kona at IM Louisville (my first!). Now I see all I need to do is buy this Opytygen-HP stuff, it will be easy!
i’ve used both regular optygen and HP, and have felt no ill effects with either and have only positive things to say. Whether its the “adaptogenic” properties of the cordyceps and rhosiola or the stimulant effect from them (they’re both supposed to help with mood) i think they help. First time is used it was before racing at altitude (i live at sea level) and i trashed guys who i race locally & who usually beat me esily at sea level. maybe i just had a good day…
without jumping into the back and forth. The only thing HP adds over the standard is Beta Analine which can be bought cheaper on it’s own and supplemented with the standard Optygen.
And if it gives you better workouts. If you think you’ve gotten faster, stronger, recovered quicker or whatever, does it really matter whether it works or it’s just the placebo affect?
But then again I am a celiac and do avoid dairy. Which I find kinda funny because I haven’t been around this forum for more than a month or so, and apparently we get a bad rap for some reason? Would love to hear the reasoning behind that one.
But then again I am a celiac and do avoid dairy. Which I find kinda funny because I haven’t been around this forum for more than a month or so, and apparently we get a bad rap for some reason? Would love to hear the reasoning behind that one.
I think this is in response to what I wrote. If you re-read, I said that I am not a celiac, but that I do avoid gluten anyway, and feel better as a result. I also avoid dairy, again, not because I am lactose intolerant, but because I feel better. My point was basically, that “vague” claims are not always without basis - gluten is a common allergen, and just because it isn’t going to actively hurt you, it doesn’t mean that it’s not bad for you or that it is good for you. E.g., the FDA approves of everything in McDonald’s food, but go watch SuperSize Me and tell me you’d live off McDonald’s for a month. Of course, that’s sort of the inverse of Optygen, which is trying to prove that something “vague” is a positive response - i.e., I feel better than before - as opposed to negative - i.e., i feel worse than before I ate all that pasta. So I’m hoping you didn’t perceive anything I wrote as being negative towards celiacs. Merely saying that it’s not only celiacs that ought to eliminate gluten.
If you think you’ve gotten faster, stronger, recovered quicker or whatever, does it really matter whether it works or it’s just the placebo affect?
No … not at all … doing better because you think you’ll do better is just fine. Only matters from the standpoint of scientific accuracy. But then the next question is what do you do when you aren’t performing as well … when the placebo effect is gone???
Dave
But then again I am a celiac and do avoid dairy. Which I find kinda funny because I haven’t been around this forum for more than a month or so, and apparently we get a bad rap for some reason? Would love to hear the reasoning behind that one.
I think this is in response to what I wrote. If you re-read, I said that I am not a celiac, but that I do avoid gluten anyway, and feel better as a result. I also avoid dairy, again, not because I am lactose intolerant, but because I feel better. My point was basically, that “vague” claims are not always without basis - gluten is a common allergen, and just because it isn’t going to actively hurt you, it doesn’t mean that it’s not bad for you or that it is good for you. E.g., the FDA approves of everything in McDonald’s food, but go watch SuperSize Me and tell me you’d live off McDonald’s for a month. Of course, that’s sort of the inverse of Optygen, which is trying to prove that something “vague” is a positive response - i.e., I feel better than before - as opposed to negative - i.e., i feel worse than before I ate all that pasta. So I’m hoping you didn’t perceive anything I wrote as being negative towards celiacs. Merely saying that it’s not only celiacs that ought to eliminate gluten.
Wasn’t anything negative towards your response. After reading through a few threads where nutrition or supplements are talked about I’ve just seen a few sarcastic remarks towards celiacs and the avoidance of certain foods. Just made me wonder if there was some reason behind it all.
Funny you should say that about allergens. I have 2 kids that are allergic to tree nuts. Had never even heard the term until I was in the ER one night. Accordingly, my wife and I now pay very careful attention to what is in everything that we bring into our house and put in our food. I have noticed that avoiding certain things which I am not allergic to seems to have made a difference in how I feel. Take away seems to be that just because you will not have a severe reaction to something does not mean it is not effecting you in a negative way. This is your point if I understand it correctly.
I also think that due to “enhanced” farming techniques developed over that last few decades that certain food products may be very different than they were 20 years ago. While I have little evidence to back this up I imagine that same properties that make say a peanut drought and disease resistant cause a greater number of people to have an adverse reaction. Essentially it is a super peanut or tree nut or egg etc.
Impossible to really study the effect of a supplement as it would require all other things being equal which they never are. While I am skeptical of the claims of those that make supplements, I am equally skeptical of those who make equally unsupported and overly generalized claims like “all supplements are snake oil” or “they do nothing”.
I think certain supplement have a positive effect, coryceps being one of them, and will continue to take them. Will supplement alone make me a lot faster, seems unlikely. Do they help a little bit, I think they do.
One of the best posts I’ve read in a while.
Take away seems to be that just because you will not have a severe reaction to something does not mean it is not effecting you in a negative way. This is your point if I understand it correctly.
Absolutely. That’s a good summary. I will borrow that for the future if you don’t mind. 
Impossible to really study the effect of a supplement as it would require all other things being equal which they never are. While I am skeptical of the claims of those that make supplements, I am equally skeptical of those who make equally unsupported and overly generalized claims like “all supplements are snake oil” or “they do nothing”.
I think certain supplement have a positive effect, coryceps being one of them, and will continue to take them. Will supplement alone make me a lot faster, seems unlikely. Do they help a little bit, I think they do
Well said, especially your first paragraph. As with many of these things, my hope is that little bit will add up to a lot over time. More than anything, what I’m largely concerned with is keeping my body in good shape for the long haul. I’d like to do tris when I’m 80. And I think many of these supplements that reduce stress on your body (anti-oxidants, reduced cortisol levels, etc.) all play a role in that. Is some of that based on faith/trust? For sure. But I’m willing to do that if there is some evidence and if the company itself is one that I trust.
Just got a reminder from the guys at FE that all products come with a performance guarantee. Try it for a month (one bottle = one month). If you don’t think it works as they say, you can get a full refund. And, no, you don’t have to prove it didn’t work. 
It’s easiest to do if you purchase through firstendurance.com, but you can also do it through retailers, if you want to support Brian Shea at personalbestnutrtion.com, who has a discount code for ST readers. You’ve got about a month until IMWI. Give it a try. If it doesn’t work, you’ll get your money back. Of course, you may end up becoming another positive anecdote…
I tried optygen recently for a mega week at altitude. Based on my experience I continue to use it. The best I can describe it is that I have a deeper energy well to draw from without feeling spun out (man that sounds cheezy). I don’t believe a product makes you faster, but I don’t ever recall feeling this good going from below sea level to 8,000ft before. Also PR’d at 5430 last weekend, previous PR was at Longhorn (altitude 550’).
I’ve been using the $6 sugar water and it has been a game changer for me, as I feel I’m calorie-limited in races, so carrying 400 cal is a god send for me.
I’m impressed with FE products.