Looking for tips on how to overcome a seemingly large gap between my swim performance in the pool vs. open water.
To date, my best swims times are 26 for an Olympic, 32-33 for a 70.3 and 1:07 for a full. All wetsuit times. The Olympic is the most recent.
A few recent pool sets (short course yards with flip turns):
30x100 - first 20 on a 1:30 base, last 10 on a 1:25 base.
10x100 on 1:20.
Based on these pool times, I think I should be swimming faster in open water. Do folks agree?
If so, does anyone have any tips/tricks to share that have worked for them?
I don’t think this is a matter of simply not swimming straight (I’m generally pretty good at sighting and hitting bouy lines). If anything I sometimes feel a bit more like I’m flailing in open water and unable to push as hard as I can in a pool while maintaining control. I also sometimes feel like the wetsuit is throwing off my stroke.
I am the same so interested to see what the others say… I am 1:07 Full and basically do most of my pool sets at 1:27-1:31 on the 100. I have tried for years to shake it up. Now in my 23 year of racing. I clock a 1:07-1:08 and move on. I have plenty of time to be saved on my runs so I dont worry about a few minutes on the swim.
Looking for tips on how to overcome a seemingly large gap between my swim performance in the pool vs. open water.
To date, my best swims times are 26 for an Olympic, 32-33 for a 70.3 and 1:07 for a full. All wetsuit times. The Olympic is the most recent.
A few recent pool sets (short course yards with flip turns):
30x100 - first 20 on a 1:30 base, last 10 on a 1:25 base.
10x100 on 1:20.
Based on these pool times, I think I should be swimming faster in open water. Do folks agree?
If so, does anyone have any tips/tricks to share that have worked for them?
I don’t think this is a matter of simply not swimming straight (I’m generally pretty good at sighting and hitting bouy lines). If anything I sometimes feel a bit more like I’m flailing in open water and unable to push as hard as I can in a pool while maintaining control. I also sometimes feel like the wetsuit is throwing off my stroke.
Any thought welcome. Thanks!
Based on those pool times, I do think you should be faster in the open water. You’re slightly faster than me in races, but much faster in the pool. I don’t consider myself particularly good at transitioning from the pool to open water.
I doubt I can offer any suggestions you have not already considered. One possibility is that the wetsuit does not fit properly. Also, is it full-sleeved? You’ll gain less of an advantage in sleeveless.
If you feel the wetsuit is throwing off your stroke, that’s probably a matter of practicing with it in open water. I faced a similar issue in that I discovered when I was in open water with a wetsuit I tended to get off in terms of the timing and rhythm of my kick. That was particularly the case when I was around a lot of other people. The feeling was similar to what you mention, i.e. “flailing”. Now in races I really focus on the timing of my kick and I have found it makes a real difference. I feel smoother and more relaxed; my times came down too.
Your open water wetsuit swims are the same as mine, but you are massively faster in the pool. My all-in 100 yard interval time is around 1:25, and I need to rest before doing another of those. However, I do open turns. Maybe your flip turns are spectacular and a big part of your speed comes from killer flip turns.
I agree your pool times are much faster. I swim 30-31 mins for wetsuit 70.3 and my pool swims are 20x100 on 1:30, coming in at 1:19.
Do you race with a wetsuit? How often do you sight during racing? Have you ever swam open water next to someone you know swims similar times in the pool? Do you have a competitive pool swimming background?
You are a pretty bad OW swimmer, the kind I used to love to race. (-;. There are 3 kinds of OW swimmers, those that way outperform their pool times, those that are pretty even, and then you. Some people threw out wetsuit fit, could be. It could also be wetsuit familiarity. Do you swim in it often, do OW swims ever? And you gave one clue that I picked up on, you talked about sighting buoy lines. What you should be sighting is a pair of feet and bubbles ahead of you, and that is it for most of the swim. At your speed there are plenty of good feet to be on, and swimmers of that calibre are usually straight swimmers. You virtually should never be swimming on your own, and that could be as much as 5 seconds a 100 faster.
Do you train alone? once thing you can do if not, is get in a lane with someone a bit faster, and latch onto their feet and just stay there the whole workout. Just get used to that feeling, and then go and practice it in OW, which is a bit different than the pool. Pool has the lane line to keep everyone straight, and it gets all the water moving in a nice straight line. OW tends to move around, so you constantly have to readjust every few strokes to keep the tight draft. This also allows you to put your mind in cruise control, you dont have to think about buoys, straight lines, or pace. Just hang onto the fastest feet you can, it they get too fast, drop off and wait for the next pair to show up. If no one comes by, then you went out too slow in the first 400, so work on that blast off speed to get you with the group you belong with…
Thanks all. All good responses. A few more details:
Yes, sleeved wetsuit. I have wondered if it’s too tight. I’m 5’10 160-165 with broad shoulders and I’m in a SMT blue seventy. It’s definitely on the tighter side of the spectrum.
I have done a 1500 in the pool. But my 1000 yard time in the pool is low 13 min.
I’m not a big kicker. I basically don’t move when doing kick sets without fins. When swimming with the wetsuit I just do a light kick, but sometimes it feels like my legs are dragging.
On drafting, yes, agree completely. I need to do that. I always have a hard time finding the right feet in a race. I generally do train alone, so not a ton of opportunity to swim with others.
you’re a handy swimmer in the pool so that’s not letting you down.
Is it possible to get in the open water more? Ideal for you would be getting in the open water as often as possible with a group slightly around your speed or a few slightly faster and figure out how to hang in there! One thing with OW is not putting your head too far forward, so when you’re not sighting make sure you are looking down and pulling hard
OW times are also relative - could be a long course / short course, bad conditions, non-straight swimming
Two things; first, I’m 5’10" and 145-150 and I wear a SMT B70 wetsuit. Is your wetsuit a B70 Helix? I most definitely think your wetsuit may be too small. My Helix is the 2021 version and I definitely do not get shoulder fatigue like my older Helix. You may want to find somewhere that has a MT wetsuit for you to try. Second, your kick sounds exactly like mine. If I’m not wearing fins in the pool, I’m not moving in the water and when I put a wetsuit on in OW, my legs simply dangle along.
My 1500LCM pool time is 21:38 and my half-iron times are 29-30 minutes, so not far off from your times.
Looking for tips on how to overcome a seemingly large gap between my swim performance in the pool vs. open water.
To date, my best swims times are 26 for an Olympic, 32-33 for a 70.3 and 1:07 for a full. All wetsuit times. The Olympic is the most recent.
A few recent pool sets (short course yards with flip turns):
30x100 - first 20 on a 1:30 base, last 10 on a 1:25 base.
10x100 on 1:20.
Based on these pool times, I think I should be swimming faster in open water. Do folks agree?
If so, does anyone have any tips/tricks to share that have worked for them?
I don’t think this is a matter of simply not swimming straight (I’m generally pretty good at sighting and hitting bouy lines). If anything I sometimes feel a bit more like I’m flailing in open water and unable to push as hard as I can in a pool while maintaining control. I also sometimes feel like the wetsuit is throwing off my stroke.
Any thought welcome. Thanks!
How do you go in open water vs people that you know are similar pool swimmers?
I’d never use times as an indicator in open water, there are too many variables.
Isn’t it just your wall push-offs? Strong push offs are a foundational element of pool swimming for a reason, it’s extra speed. Maybe you are really good at it.
Pretty much what Monty said. Work hard on your drafting. It’s a bit of an art form. I’d suggest doing open water races and work really hard on your drafting. Always draft. I’ve swam sideways to get to people so I can draft off them. I did a 10km and must have drafted off 10-12 people and drafted the whole way. Someone is too fast, too slow, not swimming straight, have a look around and move on to the next person. It’s not easy and can be a PITA, but if you can get a race where you get a good group of guys to draft off you can save loads of time.
“Isn’t it just your wall push-offs? Strong push offs are a foundational element of pool swimming for a reason, it’s extra speed. Maybe you are really good at it.”
x2 as a possibility.
42x100s versus 2.4 miles aren’t really even the same sport, for me, but this is just my experience. I consider LCM ‘open water,’ so I am sure I am at some extreme end of this debate.
Do you ever swim long course? I had this same problem last year. I was coming in under 1:10 on 100y repeats and ~2:25 on 200s at masters. I swam 27 minutes at Olympic last July. Like others mentioned, I figured I was getting a lot of my speed from the wall. I started swimming in a 50m pool without a change in volume and swam a high 27 at a 70.3 last October.
I’m no swimming expert – but I grew up doing a lot of open water swimming so I’m going to throw something out there that hasn’t been mentioned yet: have you ever tried open water training or even (gasp!) racing … without a wetsuit? If you’re faster or the same pace then you’ll know it’s a wetsuit issue (either fit or lack of familiarity swimming with the suit). If you’re a good deal slower than your usual open water times, then you’ll know it’s another issue and not the wetsuit.
A couple of things – based on the SCM to LCM calculators, it appears that they put the benefit of walls at about 0.8 seconds per turn (obviously this is an average and it will vary per swimmer). So if you can hold 10X100 (scy) on a 1:20 interval and if you can maintain the same pace for 1650 yds (about the same as 1500 meters), that would be 22:53 for an Olympic. Maybe a little slower if you have great flip turns. So why the difference from your 26:00 (especially since your wet suit should make you faster)? Here are a couple of my thoughts:
As others have mentioned – wet suit fit (or your feedback from swimming in wet suit is causing you to use bad form)?? You can test this by swimming in your wet suit at the pool. You should go faster than normal. You may get too hot to do a full workout in the wet suit, but you should get a sense as to whether the wet suit is helping you or hurting you. The pool chlorine makes frequent pool exposure bad for wet suits, but there should be little impact from a few swims – be sure to rinse out your wet suit in fresh water as soon as you get out (my theory is that the chlorine becomes more concentrated as the water evaporates).
Another difference is the tri swim is the first leg of a 3 leg race-- are you pacing your swim leg too slow or are you comparing an all out effort in the pool against one where you need to hold back a little in open water.
I tend to have a problem getting enough air in open water ( I address this by focusing on exhaling) – if not enough air you will feel you are working hard while going slow.
Your navigation can be an issue (I know you swim straight, but even if you vary a total of 50 yards going around traffic, turn buoys etc. that would account for 0:40).
Raising your head to site also adds a little time to your swim.
I agree with Monty on drafting (in theory) – but the only race I was able to draft worth a darn was the only one I’ve done in the ocean. In the murky rivers and lakes I otherwise race in, I am terrible at getting to and holding a pair of feet.