First off I come from zero swim background. Until 2011 I swam to survive.
During 2012 I beat the water to death (for me) and got down to arriving at 1:20 / 100scy on my best workouts. That was my peak.
I took it very easy this past winter and taught myself to flip turn for the first time. This slowed me down. Now that I’m ramping back up a bit I’m still finding open turns easier…after THOUSANDS of flip turns. I’ve done basically no open turns in 6 months. My push off the wall with an open turn is a solid yard further than a flip turn. I do not think my flips are horrendous, but not perfect. The effort required to flip seems much greater.
I am still not near fit as my 10 x 100 right now I’m only arriving in about 1:32. So WAY slower than at my peak swim fitness.
Does anyone else share similar experience with flip vs. open?
First off I come from zero swim background. Until 2011 I swam to survive.
During 2012 I beat the water to death (for me) and got down to arriving at 1:20 / 100scy on my best workouts. That was my peak.
I took it very easy this past winter and taught myself to flip turn for the first time. This slowed me down. Now that I’m ramping back up a bit I’m still finding open turns easier…after THOUSANDS of flip turns. I’ve done basically no open turns in 6 months. My push off the wall with an open turn is a solid yard further than a flip turn. I do not think my flips are horrendous, but not perfect. The effort required to flip seems much greater.
I am still not near fit as my 10 x 100 right now I’m only arriving in about 1:32. So WAY slower than at my peak swim fitness.
Does anyone else share similar experience with flip vs. open?
Seems to me something is pretty wrong with your flip turn if this is true. Done efficiently, flip vs. open is quicker, more powerful and easier on your shoulders.
That little extra bit of exhalation and inhalation makes a huge difference in terms of hypoxia and general fatigue - possibly explaining the slightly longer push/glide off the wall. I noticed the same thing until I eliminated the extra breath on my open turns.
Yes I do breath on the open turns. Actually today was the first time in at least 6 months I did a hard set mixing in some open turns. I felt GREAT having that extra breath in there.
And to the other poster it is quite possible I have a flip issue, but I’ve watched every youtube vid I can…and I’m trying to get better…I will work on it.
The problem (relative to traithlon) is that the solution is somewhere in the middle. In an OWS, you seldom have the benefits of an open turn - namely that extra breath, and a nice long push. On the other hand, in an OWS, you don’t necessarily exprience the ill effects of flip turns - namely, going hypoxic every 25 yards as when you’re executing them in the pool.
One thing that I find helpful for endurance sets is using either a flip turn or a breathless open turn, combined with a very slight push off the wall. In other words, I purposely emerge from the turn and begin my stroke cycle. However, for speed sets, I like using a fast turn and a strong push because it’s more repeatable from an interval timing standpoint.
After two years of swimming, I just started flip turns last weekend. Killed me and my ankles and lungs, but now I’m going 100% ugly flip turns and my times are a few seconds faster, even though I’m still scraping ankles and touching the bottom and missing the wall often. sorry not to be of any help . . . but there is hope.
The key to a good flip turn is to drive with head and core muscles- get your arms around as fast as possible, point them in the direction you want to swim next, and and then leave them pointing them there without doing anything else until you clasp hands toward each other to streamline at the push off.
Inclination when you’re learning to flip is to use your arms to help scull your body around instead of using head and core properly, which is exactly what you don’t want to be doing, and yet is a hard habit to break.
I think you might want to really recheck your CURRENT open vs flip turn times instead of comparing your current flip times to your older open-turn times.
I’m not as good swimmer as you (I get down to 1:25-7/100scy on my best times) and I’ve never tried to optimize my flip turn, but there’s no question it’s a whole second faster than my fastest open turns for each 100yds. (It’s however possible that I’m just not a great open turner, I admit.) I too spent awhile believing that my open turns were more than good enough during the time I was learning to get comfortable with the flip, but now that I am, I can’t even come close to my flip speed advantage using an open turn.
This becomes really noticeable when I swim in masters groups, and see that guys who are dead on my pace, end up nearly half a length behind me on a 400yd interval solely because of the flip turn speed advantage. And these guys are working pretty hard to stay with me - they’ve told me they’re open turning as fast as they can possibly go (it actually looks funny to see them power into that open turn underwater from the perspective of my pretty mellow flip).
are you swimming right to the wall, stopping and then turning?
are you taking your final stroke and following that arm underneath to initiate the flip?
do you flip in one continuous motion, or is it jerky as you try to kep balanced?
do you push off on your back/side/front?
For your open turns, how are you pushing off?
If I really hammer an open turn they are fairly fast, probably faster than a lot of people do flip turns. But, when I hammer a flip turn, they are much faster than my best open turns. With a fast flip turn, you start turning well before the wall and let your legs and the momentumn take up the extra distance. Open turns always require that you hand reaches the wall before you start turning, adding some extra distance to each length.
The key to a good flip turn is to drive with head and core muscles- get your arms around as fast as possible, point them in the direction you want to swim next, and and then leave them pointing them there without doing anything else until you clasp hands toward each other to streamline at the push off.
Inclination when you’re learning to flip is to use your arms to help scull your body around instead of using head and core properly, which is exactly what you don’t want to be doing, and yet is a hard habit to break.
+1. If you can get a video on YouTube, we can offer better help. Option 2 is to have a coach, or a good swimmer who is good at flip-turns and good at coaching/teaching get in the water with goggles on and offer you advice. Flip turns should be faster, and the breath thing is not something to worry too much about. You’re probably not using your arms to accelerate through the turn properly, or something like that.
I used to run with ski boots. I was able to run a 5 km in 26 minutes.
People kept telling me that I would be much faster if I wore shoes.
Now I am running in shoes but only ran a 27 minute 5 km last weekend.
Do other people find that they are also slower running in shoes then they were in ski boots.
Part of the issue is “air/breath managment”. I fully exhale after each breath and do the same as I am pushing off on my BACK. I use my legs and core to generate the rotational force to return to my front. Feet are shoulder width apart as they flip over as well.
Yes I do breath on the open turns. Actually today was the first time in at least 6 months I did a hard set mixing in some open turns. I felt GREAT having that extra breath in there.
Watch how these guys do their turns, as they’re swimming 1:32 for 200 yd free, not 100:)
Notice how strongly they hit the wall and how their feet are only on the wall for maybe 0.2 sec at most and then push off very strongly. This is how you do a flip turn. Don’t sand-bag your turns but hit them as hard as you can.
And to the other poster it is quite possible I have a flip issue, but I’ve watched every youtube vid I can…and I’m trying to get better…I will work on it.
OK the responses are a bit overwhelming here, but I’ll try to answer a bit.
I do take my final stroke and follow the arm under to initiate the turn. I feel like it’s a continuous motion. I generally push off the wall mostly on my back, but a bit on my side. Maybe I need to work on pushing flat on my back and then rolling over…but this seems a bit more tricky.
My biggest issue seems to be getting a good crisp streamline while trying to roll over. A good streamline on an open turn is easy as it’s a flat push off the wall. Rolling and streamlining seems to be a bit more tricky.
Watching Phelps it seems he hits the wall more on his side…but I’m not Michael Phelps either
If I get a vid I’ll repost, but vid at my pool is not easy to come by. Thanks everyone.
OK the responses are a bit overwhelming here, but I’ll try to answer a bit.
I do take my final stroke and follow the arm under to initiate the turn. I feel like it’s a continuous motion. I generally push off the wall mostly on my back, but a bit on my side. Maybe I need to work on pushing flat on my back and then rolling over…but this seems a bit more tricky.
My biggest issue seems to be getting a good crisp streamline while trying to roll over. A good streamline on an open turn is easy as it’s a flat push off the wall. Rolling and streamlining seems to be a bit more tricky.
Watching Phelps it seems he hits the wall more on his side…but I’m not Michael Phelps either
If I get a vid I’ll repost, but vid at my pool is not easy to come by. Thanks everyone.
Ya, I think doing a half-twist or full twist and pushing off on your side or front is easier. I think I do a full twist and push off on my front, but my turns are so ingrained and automatic that I’ll need to think about while doing my normal flip turns to be able to say for sure. I do know with certainty that I don’t push off on my back, except of course when swimming backstroke.
I’m definitely more on my side than my back, and my legs are slightly scissored below the knee as I roll over so my feet aren’t parallel/level when they hit the wall, which naturally initiates a bit of a corkscrew twist back onto my front as I’m pushing off. At least my upper body is facing the side (any hotties in the adjacent lane?) while my feet are probably facing upwards, but the upper foot is further ahead of the lower foot towards the side I’m turning.
The biggest issue I see w/ beginners is the difficulty in “compartmentalizing” the flip from the push-off. This is also where they tend to flail their arms to ball up into a somersault and then you can almost see them think “OK, now it’s time to roll over and push off” (or push off and twist over, whichever way they’re focusing the attempt). Of course when done well, it should look seamless; I realize that’s easier said than done, but just try to visualize it all happening in a fluid, continuous motion. Think of it less as ‘flipping’ your legs over the top (i.e., fighting gravity), but naturally letting them roll up & uncurl behind you as your upper body curls underneath. Arms should end up relaxed at your sides so they’re already pointing straight towards the far wall as you push off; you shouldn’t have to be ‘bringing them in’ and then extending them to initiate the streamline.
