Oh this is gonna be good

Same shit, different day. We had this discussion about gays in the military. There are those here who predicted the utter collapse of our military, but that just didn’t happen. Some of us pointed to militaries like that of Israel who managed to have women, gays, and transgender troops without losing effectiveness. But no, we must be different. We can’t figure out how to address whatever issues (imaginary or real) may arise.

The same argument was made for gays: yeah, it looks like the issue with blacks, but this time it is different. Yeah, right.

Bravo! Well put.

Same shit, different day. We had this discussion about gays in the military. There are those here who predicted the utter collapse of our military, but that just didn’t happen. Some of us pointed to militaries like that of Israel who managed to have women, gays, and transgender troops without losing effectiveness. But no, we must be different. We can’t figure out how to address whatever issues (imaginary or real) may arise.

The same argument was made for gays: yeah, it looks like the issue with blacks, but this time it is different. Yeah, right.

Good points. As I said, my guess is that the problem will solve itself as more of the old guard (and old fogeys, including me :wink: are moved out of the military or out of positions where they can affect military decision making, and a younger breed takes over.

For what it’s worth, it seems former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Navy admiral Mike Mullen, is gung-ho in favor of complete integration of transgenders in the military and had just the other day urged Congress to embrace transgender troops and any costs (both fiscal and medical, meaning paying for their sex reassignment surgeries and any mental health services needed to make the transition) that went with them:

Accept, treat transgender troops, Adm. Mike Mullen tells Congress

ADM Mullen is a member of my beloved Navy, and he clearly knows something about the issue. For sure, he knows more than I do about it.

So you’re telling me that Israel is spending our money on the gay agenda?

Same shit, different day. We had this discussion about gays in the military. There are those here who predicted the utter collapse of our military, but that just didn’t happen. Some of us pointed to militaries like that of Israel who managed to have women, gays, and transgender troops without losing effectiveness. But no, we must be different. We can’t figure out how to address whatever issues (imaginary or real) may arise.

The same argument was made for gays: yeah, it looks like the issue with blacks, but this time it is different. Yeah, right.

So you’re telling me that Israel is spending our money on the gay agenda?

You are the gay! :wink:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/usH4f0PgTog/hqdefault.jpg

Same shit, different day. We had this discussion about gays in the military. There are those here who predicted the utter collapse of our military, but that just didn’t happen. Some of us pointed to militaries like that of Israel who managed to have women, gays, and transgender troops without losing effectiveness. But no, we must be different. We can’t figure out how to address whatever issues (imaginary or real) may arise.

The same argument was made for gays: yeah, it looks like the issue with blacks, but this time it is different. Yeah, right.

Aren’t we all a little bit gay for pay?

So you’re telling me that Israel is spending our money on the gay agenda?

You are the gay! :wink:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/usH4f0PgTog/hqdefault.jpg

Same shit, different day. We had this discussion about gays in the military. There are those here who predicted the utter collapse of our military, but that just didn’t happen. Some of us pointed to militaries like that of Israel who managed to have women, gays, and transgender troops without losing effectiveness. But no, we must be different. We can’t figure out how to address whatever issues (imaginary or real) may arise.

The same argument was made for gays: yeah, it looks like the issue with blacks, but this time it is different. Yeah, right.

Aren’t we all a little bit gay for pay?

No doubt about that! :wink:

So you’re telling me that Israel is spending our money on the gay agenda?

You are the gay! :wink:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/usH4f0PgTog/hqdefault.jpg

I don’t have a problem with coming up with a solution for them being in the military. I’m even willing to go along with separate facilities for showering etc… but I have a real problem with us paying for their transition via military healthcare benefits.

I don’t have a problem with coming up with a solution for them being in the military. I’m even willing to go along with separate facilities for showering etc… but I have a real problem with us paying for their transition via military healthcare benefits.

What is this real problem? They have a medical condition that can be improved with surgery, like many other medical conditions.

There are those here who predicted the utter collapse of our military…

No there aren’t, but I know it’s fun to set up those straw men so you can feel good about knocking them down.

I don’t have a problem with coming up with a solution for them being in the military. I’m even willing to go along with separate facilities for showering etc… but I have a real problem with us paying for their transition via military healthcare benefits.

Yeah, that one was causing some serious heartburn with more than a few unit commanders and troops, especially among the more senior enlisted ranks (two command sergeants major I know of were basically livid about it, but they kept their mouths shut, as they should). It smacked of special treatment for one class of troops over the majority class of troops, and this in an organization that has very clear rules on how military people are treated (generally equally, with the exception of the rights, privileges and responsibilities granted to officers and enlisted troops, according to their rank).

My wife says that the state Guard has been delaying reenlistment bonus money, student loan repayment money and other promised monetary bonuses and benefits, yet word was that Soldiers were going to receive fully paid-for sex reassignment surgeries right away, plus special post-surgery assignments, mental health therapy, etc. That was also causing some griping, whether true or not in the end.

Combine that with President Obama commuting Bradley/Chelsea Manning’s sentence – which was his right to do under the plenary powers presidents are granted under the Constitution…so I had no problem with what he did vis a vis Manning – and the grumbling among the troops was becoming a bit worrying.

Working for him must be awful tough. I imagine that he’s gone thru a heck of a lot of subordinates over the years, as each desperately attempts to give him what he wants, but then ultimately falls short because he doesn’t clearly communicate what he wants.

https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5978bfde14d01710f83e5cb5/master/w_727,c_limit/DC072617A.jpg

Trump bans the trans.
I work in Ann Arbor …this will probably cause some marches there.

Politico is saying this ban was to resolve a spending dispute in the House. Of course, this president being who he is, it looks like he decided to take a gallon of high octane gas and merrily pour it over the smoldering fire that the spending issue had become: :wink:

"Numerous House conservatives and defense hawks this week had threatened to derail their own legislation if it did not include a prohibition on Pentagon funding for gender reassignment surgeries, which they deem a waste of taxpayer money. But GOP leaders were caught in a pinch between those demands and moderate Republicans who felt the proposal was blatantly discriminatory…

The president’s directive, of course, took the House issue a step beyond paying for gender reassignment surgery and other medical treatment. House Republicans were never debating expelling all transgender troops from the military.

“This is like someone told the White House to light a candle on the table and the WH set the whole table on fire,” said one senior House Republican aide. The source said that while GOP leaders asked the White House for help, they weren’t expecting — and got no heads up on — Trump’s far-reaching directive."

Inside Trump’s snap decision to ban transgender troops - POLITICO

I don’t have a problem with coming up with a solution for them being in the military. I’m even willing to go along with separate facilities for showering etc… but I have a real problem with us paying for their transition via military healthcare benefits.

What is this real problem? They have a medical condition that can be improved with surgery, like many other medical conditions.

Does the military pay for other elective, cosmetic surgery and subsequent therapy, hormones, councilling, etc? I honestly don’t know.

I don’t have a problem with coming up with a solution for them being in the military. I’m even willing to go along with separate facilities for showering etc… but I have a real problem with us paying for their transition via military healthcare benefits.

What is this real problem? They have a medical condition that can be improved with surgery, like many other medical conditions.

Does the military pay for other elective, cosmetic surgery and subsequent therapy, hormones, councilling, etc? I honestly don’t know.

It depends on whether the surgery is necessary or elective. If it’s elective surgery, like breast augmentation (unless there’s a psychological component to it), troops usually have to cover the costs of the surgery even if it’s done at a military treatment facility (military surgeons do plastic surgery to help troops with disfiguring injuries typically caused by combat events and such, and they can justify such procedures as “practice”). If you choose to have such surgery on your own hook, ‘out in town’, you oftentimes must first obtain permission from your commander and the local MTF and pay all costs associated with it. You also usually have to take leave in order to get it done.

Trump bans the trans.
I work in Ann Arbor …this will probably cause some marches there.

Pretty calculated move. A huge chunk of people won’t care at all, his supporters will eat it up, a chunk of SJW’s will scream to high heaven, a slice of people will be turned off by Democrats support of people they think have something wrong with them.

He really has no risk on this.

There’s a bit of risk, at least that’s what I am reading in some of the military officer forums I am a member of.

SECDEF Mattis was already creating a look into this, with formal inquiries for combatant and garrison commands to weigh in with their thoughts. This inquiry had a deadline of December 31st. Now, Trump has ‘spoken to his generals’ so he says, and does domestic policy via tweet.

If he undermines his SECDEF, there’s going to be an internal problem. I’m not for or against the policy… my two cents about how the Army does business became irrelevant when I took my uniform off for good. However, there’s enough policy dictated by civilian leadership that rubs the military the wrong way (regardless of party in the oval)… now there’s more.

I was speaking strictly on the political level.

I think in the short term it helps the Republicans to force Democrats to defend transgendered people specifically and probably the entirety of the LGBT population. There are enough people, especially among the people who would consider voting for them in the first place, that believe we are making too much accommodation for homosexuals, let alone trans people already to make this a politically beneficial move.

It is an incredibly cynical way to live your life, I will fuck these people over badly for a very small benefit to myself. But I doubt it will cause him to lose sleep.

Trump must be protecting his boys and kushy(did u hear him at the lectern and watch him walk)
.

Speaking honestly, I’m also not sure what, if any, issues would arise from transgender troops, especially given that the armed forces are quickly being taken over by Millennials, who seem to be more accepting of such things.

Too late. The oldest millennials turn 32 this year. By the most recent numbers, that means 80% of active duty are millennials. They took over in 2010, when they his 50% of the active duty :wink: . Even 55% of active duty officers are millennials.

Speaking honestly, I’m also not sure what, if any, issues would arise from transgender troops, especially given that the armed forces are quickly being taken over by Millennials, who seem to be more accepting of such things.

Too late. The oldest millennials turn 32 this year. By the most recent numbers, that means 80% of active duty are millennials. They took over in 2010, when they his 50% of the active duty :wink: . Even 55% of active duty officers are millennials.

Like I remarked to Mr Klehner, it looks like the problem will solve itself soon enough, given Millennials and their views on social issues.

As I pointed out in that Politico piece on the kerfuffle today, it looks like President Trump basically threw up his hands and went with a full-on ban – reinstating one that had been lifted by his predecessor, Barack Obama, and his SECDEF, Ashton Carter – in order to move that spending bill through, even though no one was asking for a ban reinstatement. Just a ban on the government paying for sex reassignment surgeries and follow-on care. This may have been in a moment of truculence on the part of the Orange-Haired Wonder, or it may have been a calculated move to shift focus away from other others issues, in a ‘wag the dog’ kind of way.

She says this issue of transgender Soldiers has been nothing but a huge distraction for her unit and that most of the female Soldiers in the unit are the ones questioning the entire program. Almost no Soldier in her unit was in support of the initiative, according to a February survey taken of several state Guard units and organizations, and the hundreds of questions the troops were asking the DoD people sent out to brief on the impending arrival of transgender Soldiers mostly revolved around shower, latrine and barracks accommodations and their discomfort with that, the inevitable confusion my wife says she thinks would result when it came to these biological ‘men’ and/or ‘women’ and so forth. She says it’s just a bridge too far at the moment.

I’m retired military, with much of my enlisted (and a part of my commissioned officer) time spent out in the field, with Marine infantry/Recon units or in some form of special operations/special warfare. Needless to say, I’m not even a fan of having women in the infantry or in special operations ‘trigger puller’ roles, so let me stipulate to that and be honest about where I’m coming from in terms of this debate.

Speaking honestly, I’m also not sure what, if any, issues would arise from transgender troops, especially given that the armed forces are quickly being taken over by Millennials, who seem to be more accepting of such things. It may just be that time will eventually solve this “problem,” especially if North Korea launches a nuclear-tipped ICBM at us next year (the year they’re projected to have intercontinental ballistic missile capabilities, according to the latest news reports) and we need every man jack and “swinging dick” (making a joke :wink: on deck and sending rounds downrange at Whoa Fat over there in Pyongyang. :wink:

But from what I’ve heard through the various military officer groups of which I’m still a member, this was becoming a thorn in the side of SECDEF Mattis, who’d already announced a six-month delay in implementation to further study the issue. Mostly, the feeling was that the initiative was a solution in search of a non-existent problem: there’d been no huge clamor for transgender Soldier rights, or similar issues, and many officers (at least the ones I know, active duty, reserve, and retired) didn’t want the headaches for what would turn out to be a very, very small percentage of troops in the armed forces. Almost every Marine with whom I’ve served and kept in touch with was flat-out against the idea, though I think it was the Army that was leading the push and which was planning on accommodating most of the transgenders that DoD knew about at this point.

At any rate, I think a 2011 report said that the number of adults in the US who identified as transgender ranged from 0.3 to 0.6 percent of the population (up to 1.4 million adults at the high end of estimates). Many people also still have a difficult time accepting that transgenderism and the rights that should appertain are analogous with civil rights for minorities such as blacks or Hispanics.

I’m also retired military, and that’s my take too. What irritates me with the gay and LGBT ideas shoved on the military in the last decade is that none of the proponents of these ideas are doing it for the good of the military. They’re pushing the idea because they like progressive advocacy or they think that it will be a factor in getting elected.

To me it’s hugely important that we put the effectiveness of the military as #1. At the small unit level, the military is like a family of members from very different backgrounds that all jell together and end up willing to do anything for each other under very high levels of stress. Anything that messes with that is really bad.

I know that “don’t ask, don’t tell” was kind of a kludge, but it did work. In the 90’s I worked with a couple female officers that, years after I worked with them both came out of the closet, and both of those ladies were really awesome and I’m good friends with them to this day.

My point is that when we’re dreaming up ideas to shove down the throat of our military, we should ask them…“do you think this will tighten small unit bonds?” and “will this add expense, bureaucratic hassle, or reduce deployability statistics?” And if the answers come back unsupportive, we don’t do it. The highest good is the health of the military, not the feelgood program of the day. A healthy military is a more effective military and that translates to fewer kids getting killed.

The problem with my “don’t shove progressive ideas down the throat of the military” is the integration of blacks into the military. On the one hand I hate to see ideas shoved down the throat of the military by well intentioned outsiders, but on the other hand, like most other Western white folk, I really have case of hates re. racism. Once can’t say “Doing this is bad” when they actually mean “Doing this is bad UNLESS it’s for a cause I really care about”.

So here’s my attempt to navigate that hypocrisy. I’d like to think that with our changing values on racism in the 60’s and the decades that followed, the cultural changes would have driven the integration of the military, just like the cultural changes created the network of anti-racist laws that we have now. That is to say, the military would have fixed it on their own because they are a reflection of our culture.