Since there was some discussion happening in the Official Shiv thread, CakeWalk suggested we started a new thread for the McLaren specific questions…
Chris,
Can you comment on the tolerance of the weights per frame and the process like I mentioned in the Shiv thread?
To catch up on the previous discussions…
mile2424 wrote:
I know the carbon layup was suppose to increase stiffness by 10% as well, and was “suppose” to reduce the weight by 10%. We know that the weight values have not been coming in lower and in most cases heavier than a normal S-WORKS. Not sure how true this is, but I had also read the following, “The normal S-Works Venge frame takes about 15-20 hours to make in labour. The McLaren frame takes upto 10 times that at 150-160 hours in carbon layup and optimization as well as frame finish and painting.”
Hey Mile2424!
The McLaren really is a thing of beauty!
The McLaren Venge did make some big gains over the already brilliant S-Works bike. The weight drops over 100g! and the Stiffness to weight improved by 17% over the standard SW layup.
As for the production time, our construction method is called FACT-IS and it is an expensive and lengthy process. With that said, it is the absolute best way currently to put a bicycle together. By breaking up the frame in to smaller parts our engineers can focus on refining small parts of the frame for stiffness, ride quality, and weight. While this is a more expensive production method than the “Triple Monocoque” method that many companies use through out their line it really makes for a better riding bicycle.
FACT-IS break up of a new SW Shiv-
At specialized, we use the FACT-IS method in nearly all of our high performance Road, MTB, and Tri products. Actual hands on time for almost all of our FACT-IS construction bikes (from a base-level tarmac to SW Venge) is around 22-24 Hours. We are able to make lower cost frames like the base Tarmac by using more of lower cost materials, not by cutting labor time.
As for the McLaren Venge… it uses another world of precision. Actual hands on time laying up the bike is around 72 hours! almost 3 times as much as a standard frame.
CakeWalk wrote:
The McLaren Venge did make some big gains over the already brilliant S-Works bike. The weight drops over 100g! and the Stiffness to weight improved by 17% over the standard SW layup.
Hey Chris,
The actual scales have been telling a very different story as to weight of S-Works versus Mclaren Venges.
Here is one McLaren at 1180 grams: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ntable;post=3816874;
here is another McLaren, in 56cm, with Di2 stuff weighing in at 1200 grams(Di2 stuff weighs 102 grams):
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...t=98146&start=75
Interestingly enough 54cm S-Works is 1050 grams without Di2 stuff:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/…=47679&mode=view
So the S-Works is the same weight when accounting for size differences and variation, if not a little lighter. I think one could make a case that the variation from claimed weights is to say the least disappointing. I know the paint is slightly different, but I’m not a fan of weighing bikes in a condition other than consumers receive them.
mile2424 wrote:
I think it would also be very interesting to know a few things about the process of the McLaren and where the additional weight analysis may come from.
I believe the McLaren layup is using carbon pieces or templates that are being precisely cut by computerized CAD programs. Whereas the S-WORKS is just hand applied allowing for some manual overlapping of pieces. This was my understanding when the bike was first released, and this was how McLaren worked with Specialized to refine the layup and minimize the overlap and excess weight where needed. If this is the case, I would guess there is very little variance in the weight of each “set” of pieces or templates that go into a frame. Any chance you can share the tolerance of +/- “X” grams per “set” of pieces for each frame?
Next, I would think there is some additional weight with the resin applied once the carbon is diced out and applied into the frame. After this, I would think you would have the bare carbon frame, and then would need to apply the matte black paint onto the frame, add the S-Works paint or decal and the McLaren logo, clear once again, and then add the rocket red McLaren paint on top of this. Is there a reason the red color was chosen as a paint rather than a decal like the tour bikes? Was there a reason the color of the S-Works decal also changed from the dark stealthy grey to a brighter silver for production bikes?
Does Specialized QC inspect or allow “X” grams of variance for a McLaren leaving the line or getting shipped out? How about for a normal S-Works? It would be very interesting to know if there were records showing all bikes produced, with weights, and plotted on a chart to see the distribution. Of course like others mentioned, this may vary greatly or depend on when these weights are measured, but it would be vary intriguing to understand the process.
I’d like to do our best to keep this thread on the Shiv, Mark and I have been trying very hard to make sure everyone with the Shiv or anyone with questions has an outlet for answers. If anyone has questions about the McLaren lets get that rolling in a new thread so the questions don’t get rolled up in to the middle of this thread.
However, The best thing about the McLaren is how quickly the technology is trickling in to our other projects!
Working with the McLaren engineers we have started to learn new ways of analyzing the bikes, new ways of manufacturing, and new ways of improving quality control. Specialized does one of the best jobs in the industry testing our product. Between the in-house test lab and the nearly identical test lab based in our manufacturing facilities in Taiwan we’re able to quickly get data and make revisions to our projects.
For most of our testing we tend to use “destructive” tests. This means that after testing a frame for strength or fatigue the product is typically scrapped. With bikes like the Tarmac, Epic, Ruby, ect… that’s fine. We produce thousands of these frames and we want to make sure that we are testing frames straight from the assembly line. With the McLaren we are only producing 500 bikes world wide, that means we can’t afford to break as many frames. The engineers at McLaren worked with us using "non destructive testing. They were able to show us a ply-by-ply analysis of exactly how each layer in the frame contributes to its over all performance. This level of analysis let us make fewer revisions and optimism the frame much more quickly than the typical process.
Along with the preproduction analysis, we also started using nondestructive means of testing quality after frames have been produced. After working with the McLaren team we have invested in sonar measuring equipment that allows us to check for wall thickness and carbon compaction before we destroy the frame. By measuring the wall thickness and compaction of the carbon we can ensure consistent layup and performance of every frame that leaves the factory. This technology is already being put in to use for bikes that will be available in 2013 as well as helping to refine frame lay-ups that already exist!
Really really cool stuff is happening. If there are anymore questions about the McLaren lets start a new thread, I love chatting about that bike. it really is the pinnacle of want ANY bicycle company is doing we are learning an enormous amount from them.
Chris
so am I correct that Specialized response to " why is the mclaren frame not lighter" was
“look at all the cool stuff we are doing to build this frame!”
?
Since there was some discussion happening in the Official Shiv thread, CakeWalk suggested we started a new thread for the McLaren specific questions…
Chris,
Can you comment on the tolerance of the weights per frame and the process like I mentioned in the Shiv thread?
Thanks for getting this rolling Mile2424!
Sure thing!
The frame has a bare unidirectional carbon finish. This means that the top structural layer of carbon is also the outermost cosmetic layer. The paint selected for the McLaren frame is subtle, using the very loud McLaren “red” only in hidden spots on the inside of the fork, stays, and bottom of the DT. To finish the frame and provide a surface that the “red” can adhere to, the frames have been hit with an appropriate amount of matte clear. Which accounts for most of the variance in frame weight.
In the examples linked by Runless showing frames weighing in at 1180g and 1200g (Quoted weight from us, 950g) The bikes are fitted with a few things not included in frame weight. Things like the plastic sleeves used to help route cables during the build, the BB and BB cups, the seatpost collar, and cable guides.
Bare frames in Size 56 should be much closer to the 950g claimed weight and to make sure we are getting closer we have gone back and revised the amount of clear coat added to the frames.
Thanks for the reply Chris…
So do you guys have a pass or fail criteria for the weight before it leaves the factory? An acceptable range? Are these weighed or measured before they leave?
Do you have a production McLaren frame set at the headquarters you could weigh and show us as you described?
Thanks for the reply Chris…
So do you guys have a pass or fail criteria for the weight before it leaves the factory? An acceptable range? Are these weighed or measured before they leave?
Do you have a production McLaren frame set at the headquarters you could weigh and show us as you described?
I just spoke with Brad P, the man who worked with McLaren to develop the lay up for the bike. Brad said that weight was taken on the individual frame components before the frame was assembled. When building up such a performance oriented frame they wanted to make sure that each component was accurately produced. After the frame pieces pass quality control they are then assembled in to the final frame and painted.
After seeing some of the original bikes after painting, we decided to reject the bikes based on the paint. Notice the preproduction image below, there is a noticeable step between the bare frame and the McLaren “Red”. Realizing that this would be perceived as a poor quality finish the development team of the bike made the call to add additional clear to the bike to smooth the transition between the bare frame and the painted sections. The result is a frame that looks AMAZING at the cost of a few grams.
In the future we will run 2 separate weight quality controls. One after the frame components are finished to ensure structural quality, and one after the bike is painted to ensure claimed weight.
With that said, we should still be seeing bikes in the 950g range. I will try to get my hands on a frame, but I make no promises. The bikes here in the office are typically built up and a in frequent use getting the bikes out to journalists.
I hope that clears up the confusion.
Just so we’re clear,
1210-1220 grams for a frame with di2 equipment(100-110 grams) and seatpost clamp(34 grams), plastic bottom bracket guide(8 grams) and bottle cage bolts(6 grams)
means a reasonable stripped frame weight of about 1070 grams.
I care less about 100 grams of frame weight and more about the bike industry not being so full of it.
If the McLaren project achieved great layup qualities, strength and stiffness; kudos. Feel free to market those qualities. No amount of clear coat in the world is going to get it to the “sub 950 grams” claimed on your website when it’s in a customers hands.
Was it true that the pre-production frames like you pictured were using decals instead of paint?
Just so we’re clear,
1210-1220 grams for a frame with di2 equipment(100-110 grams) and seatpost clamp(34 grams), plastic bottom bracket guide(8 grams) and bottle cage bolts(6 grams)
means a reasonable stripped frame weight of about 1070 grams.
I care less about 100 grams of frame weight and more about the bike industry not being so full of it.
If the McLaren project achieved great layup qualities, strength and stiffness; kudos. Feel free to market those qualities. No amount of clear coat in the world is going to get it to the “sub 950 grams” claimed on your website when it’s in a customers hands.
I very much understand you concerns. Before working with Specialized at the mother ship… I was in bike shops for 9 years. It was always tough when the expectations set by the manufacturers couldn’t be met at the shop level and over the years I have also seen it happen time and time again.
We are working hard to make sure that bikes in the future are much closer to their claimed weights. Lucky for everyone involved most people buying a McLaren Venge are not buying it solely based on claimed weight!!! Thanks for you comments, I will personally make sure that your concerns get to the people making the decisions about future projects!
Was it true that the pre-production frames like you pictured were using decals instead of paint?
Pre-production frames were painted. They, however, lacked the clear coat that the production bike have. Surprisingly, the pros throwing their leg over the bike don’t care all that much about the aesthetics… hahaha.
What was the reason or decision to change the silver color on the S-Works paint or decal? It was much darker on tour frames.
Also, just a side note, I weighed my PB glossy S-Works Venge and it weighs in at 1180 g. Same as my McLaren.
Also wanted to post this pic of Tom Boonen’s McLaren for Milan San Remo…
http://miletichphotography.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v14/p543302996-5.jpg
Chris,
I am the happy owner of an S-Works Venge in the matt version of project black, and I was happy with the weight, 1060 grams for a 54cm without any parts, no BB etc.
Happier still, by a few minor miracles I have a 2012 McLaren on the way.
Can you fill me in on any differences between the 2011, 2012 and 2013 models of the McLaren?
And this weight thing, I hate to harp on it, but do you think it did come down a little with each new model year, or at least over time as you guys got on top of the process?
thanks much
As a starving college student, I hate you all 
But seriously though, I got to see one of these last summer. Incredible bike, hopefully one day I can ride something like this (or better!)
I never understood the weight weenies …
100g is nothing… Why is it worth the extra cash?
The vast majority of WW don’t do it for riding improvements as much as a hobby. On this forum you’ll find ww, aero weenies, color coordination weenies, most expensive bike weenies, must look like my favorite rider weenies, etc.
At the extreme end of any hobby some people just get interested in some tiny aspect.
But really the guy that built the 5 pound or whatever bike and actually rode it quite a bit, your not the least bit curious to ride something like that just to see what it feels like and how it handles?
In the case of the McLaren I suspect more people that just have to have the most expensive buy it , rather than the weight weenies.
Indeed. There is plenty that is hard to understand in this world, like people who take the time to post snarky forum stuff.
Dear Chris
I have recently purchased a 2012 Mclaren Venge which I murdered my credit card to secure however the pleasure I derive from it makes it worth every cent of the many thousands of dollars I paid for it. I purchased the bike from a private seller who bought it from the original owner in the US. Over the past 4 weeks or more since I took delivery I have been attempting to get the bike insured however 2 insurers have asked me to verify that it is a real Mclaren as well as provide proof of its replacement value. I thought this would be a relatively simple task of asking a local Specialized dealership to verify via the serial number on the bike that it is the real deal. So far I have approached Specialized representatives in two separate Australian states and while both have checked the serial number and confirmed the bike is an original Mclaren niether of them was prepared to verify it on Specialized letterhead. Why?? Well, the first guy said it might confuse the warranty entitlement because I am not the original owner. The second guy said the frame never came with a certificate of authenticity so he could not supply me with one.
What do I have to do? Can you please help me because I am not trying to cheat warranty nor am I asking for a special engraved plague of authenticity. All I need is a letter on company letterheard or similar that says, “this is to verify that Specialized S-Works Mclaren Venge serial number WSBC6040128042G is a genuine Mclaren frame.”
If you can help me it would save me a lot of further anxiety. If I knew how to attach pictures to this post I would do so. Notwithstanding, I am happy to send pictures of the bike via normal email but I need your contact details to do so.
Many thanks
Jon
PS. I note there has been some discussion here about weight of the frame. I can’t tell you the specific weight of my Mclaren frame however I can say that the full bike only weighs 6.9 kilos and that is with a roman saddle 160grams (the original toupe at 110gms was too hard for me); Roubaix Pro tyres 250gms each; Zipp Firecrest 404 carbon clinchers 1500 gms; 2 x Arundel carbon bottle cages 52 gms (for both); speedplay pedals 148 gms (for both) and an SRM powermeter 7 on S-works carbon cranks (not sure of weight). As you can see these are not the lightest components around but the bike is still very lite.
Cheers
Hi Cakewalk
Here are the pics of my Mclaren - I worked out how to post them.
Cheers
Jon
Massive thread revival!
Can anyone tell me where I can get the black caps/blanking plates to cover all the cable holes under the BB of the McLaren?
When Di2 was fitted to mine they were left open, I have taped over them but want a neater solution, thanks.