Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…

Triathlon Forum
521

Men’s…

Norwegians did much, much better than I expected, but have to remember this is the course they broke through on, signs are there that the move up to LC isn’t going to damage to them at SC. Yee seemed way off on the run, he was at the front of the bike a lot, maybe he burnt matches or just got sick or something?

Had a feeling Luis would do well (least one of my predictions was close) never did I expect there to be enough fire power to stay away from a chase group which was obviously going to have Norwegians, Yee, Geens, Murray etc. Don’t know where all the comments have come from regarding ‘blue prints’ and ‘this race has changed the game’, its not a secret that Yee, Wilde and Blu are not front pack swimmers. When the rest of the top French men are back they have more fire power in that front pack but still don’t manage to stay away.

Fair play to the two Spanish dudes, good they’ve come through now with the loss of Gomez, Mola and Alarza (Mola DNF what happened to him?)

It’s a blueprint that no one has really been able to implement the past couple of seasons. It isn’t really anything new. Think Brownlees particularly AB.

The Norwegian’s achilles heel is their swim particularly GI. I’m glad someone exposed this. Makes the racing more interesting moving forward, the belief that you don’t need AB in the front pack to stay away. You might start seeing more organisation and committement in these front packs moving forward with this belief.

522

Steve I think I’ve said in 2 threads that getting too 10 was brilliant (see the Blu GOAT) . I’ve also said that anyone who had them as favorites I kinda cringe at. This idea that they can just decide on any race distance and dominant ain’t going to happen in itu.

They obviously were going to miss top top performances when they weren’t training that speed (thank you capt obvious). Thus why I’ve said to you, the more they keep going back into the LC training pool before Paris, the more they’ll just keep moving on from an medal winning performance. They have said they’ll skip Kona, but I’ll believe it when I see it. If they go all in on Paris, game on. And thus I said If they actually go back to LC racing between now and then they won’t win a medal. I mean the expectation of Iden medaling isn’t really fair considering he’s never really been able to get to the next level in itu that Blu has (that’s not a knock that’s just easily a fair assessment….he doesn’t have that top top end speed that you need to medal in itu, but neither does 90% of the athletes racing). I think he in particular comes back to itu cus in general it’s probably a hell of a lot of fun for a mid 20’s guy or girl. You get paid to race and the itu community is
pretty close knit and you get to do it every month w the same group. Atleast Blu is a medal contender/reigning champion so it’s not completely out of question for them to keep itu racing as athletes in their 20’s. Especially when they show they are competitive as they have, this isn’t an Frodo moment where it’s “holy shit I can’t compete” type of realization.

But when I hear they are going to show up and be a favorite, I’ll stand on this hill as that ain’t going to happen in a full big boy field. I’m not sure what the push back is. They raced brilliantly as “untrained” itu specifics but to think they can just win at any race any time they want, lol.

523

Steve I think I’ve said in 2 threads that getting too 10 was brilliant (see the Blu GOAT) . I’ve also said that anyone who had them as favorites I kinda cringe at. This idea that they can just decide on any race distance and dominant ain’t going to happen in itu.

They obviously were going to miss top top performances when they weren’t training that speed (thank you capt obvious). Thus why I’ve said to you, the more they keep going back into the LC training pool before Paris, the more they’ll just keep moving on from an medal winning performance. They have said they’ll skip Kona, but I’ll believe it when I see it. If they go all in on Paris, game on. And thus I said If they actually go back to LC racing between now and then they won’t win a medal. I mean the expectation of Iden medaling isn’t really fair considering he’s never really been able to get to the next level in itu that Blu has (that’s not a knock that’s just easily a fair assessment….he doesn’t have that top top end speed that you need to medal in itu, but neither does 90% of the athletes racing).** I think he in particular comes back to itu cus in general it’s probably a hell of a lot of fun for a mid 20’s guy or girl.** You get paid to race and the itu community is
pretty close knit and you get to do it every month w the same group. Atleast Blu is a medal contender/reigning champion so it’s not completely out of question for them to keep itu racing as athletes in their 20’s. Especially when they show they are competitive as they have, this isn’t an Frodo moment where it’s “holy shit I can’t compete” type of realization.

But when I hear they are going to show up and be a favorite, I’ll stand on this hill as that ain’t going to happen in a full big boy field. I’m not sure what the push back is. They raced brilliantly as “untrained” itu specifics but to think they can just win at any race any time they want, lol.

can’t emphasize this enough. for a lot of young athletes especially, ironman is boring as hell. it’s solitary and poorly paid. the racing is a lonely slog and only get to race a few times a year. sponsorship is cobbled together.

meanwhile at short course you’re traveling the world with the same bunch of other young, single athletes (!), have federation support (even just for the little logistical stuff like travel and uniforms, not to mention sports meds, coaching, etc), the racing is shoulder-to-shoulder, fast, and exciting, and between superleague, french league, WTCS, classics, etc, you can race all the time.

waaaaay more fun.

524

I’ve never really thought of it like that, if I was Iden I’m staying at IM/MD and I’m going to try and dominate (especially as my current main rival tries to go and medal at Olympics)

This post sold the ITU life to me though, travel and trying to pick up ITU women definitely appeals to me!

525

Given the way the Tokyo olympics unfolded and next olys in Paris I expect the french army to raise the bar on their swim. If you add Hauser and Jonny Brownlee you have the perfect storm to gap the norwegians, Yee and Wilde. I think it is going to become in a sort of brownleeish show from the old days…by the way, am I the only one who thinks that some people, despite Paris 24, will move into PTO racing? I think it is a good chunk of money for people that are not at the top and can transfer well into middle distance…

526

Bad example. You make this sound like a paradise and as if anyone can race ITU at the level and even get that level of federation support. Also The lack of sponsorship opportunities. The barrier for ITU at world cup and WTS racing that MAY even allow athletes to get paid, outside their parents funding their dream is so high. ITU racing isn’t some spring break fun trip. Nor are all these ITU athletes paid very well

If it was that glamorous, we’d see more people going ITU route but unfortunately this isn’t accurate. And we see more young ITU dreamers get burnered out.

And believe it not, some people find ITU “boring as hell” because it’s unrelatable to the masses and actually find IM and 70.3 more exciting

can’t emphasize this enough. for a lot of young athletes especially, ironman is boring as hell. it’s solitary and poorly paid. the racing is a lonely slog and only get to race a few times a year. sponsorship is cobbled together.

meanwhile at short course you’re traveling the world with the same bunch of other young, single athletes (!), have federation support (even just for the little logistical stuff like travel and uniforms, not to mention sports meds, coaching, etc), the racing is shoulder-to-shoulder, fast, and exciting, and between superleague, french league, WTCS, classics, etc, you can race all the time.

waaaaay more fun.

527

Unfortunately, on paper the Paris course looks like a Beaugrand course (boring and non-technical) rather than something like Bermuda… I wish there were more tough courses on the circuit, because the races are more dynamic. Bermuda was a funny one because they were smaller fields, and several athletes skipped the race to avoid some travel heading into the Grand Final (if they didn’t need points), but with a tough course, and some people with the skills to disrupt, it made for more exciting racing.

Also, gotta love when some of the athletes help to design the courses, and it shows in the results. Flora designed the Bermuda course, and has now won twice on it (might have won a 3rd had it not been for injury), The Brownlees helped to design the Leeds course and have done well there (before the course changed), KB helped with the Bergen World Cup course, and ended up on the Podium, despite the LD focus this year. While it might be a bit of conflict of interest, when you look at the commonality of these athlete designed courses, they are hard, exciting, and don’t suck the way that urban planner designed courses do…

528

Wow Vincent Luis… he did it. I’ve been a huge fan since I watched this documentary on him.

https://youtu.be/tAMjyovd66w

He was struggling with a heart problem so I’ve been wondering. I don’t pay close attention to ITU but I always see two names, Yee and Wilde. Vincent Luis blew Yee out of the water it seems like. He’s back and I hope he does well
From now on.

529

Given the way the Tokyo olympics unfolded and next olys in Paris I expect the french army to raise the bar on their swim. If you add Hauser and Jonny Brownlee you have the perfect storm to gap the norwegians, Yee and Wilde. I think it is going to become in a sort of brownleeish show from the old days…by the way, am I the only one who thinks that some people, despite Paris 24, will move into PTO racing? I think it is a good chunk of money for people that are not at the top and can transfer well into middle distance…

I’d get in quick with the PTO bonanza as I really don’t know how sustainable it is??

530

This couldn’t be further from the truth! I just spent a few days with the SLT athletes in NEOM and many talked about the challenges of WT racing with the travel all over the world, minimal funding and having to do so much organizational and logistical work to make it to the start line. Yes, some have access to great resources (sports meds/physios) if they’re part of a big federation and are located in the right place (e.g. Leeds, Loughborough, Colorado Springs) but it’s mostly an independent contractor kind of role where you’re your own travel agent and seeking out assistance for training and support on your own. You might not even have much choice about which races you do if you’re under Federation oversight.

It’s one of the reasons that short-course athletes love Super League racing because for once, all of the logistical details are taken care of… flights, hotels, transfers, food, physio, bike mechanic etc. For once, they feel like professionals even if it’s a lot of travel.

As for sponsorship, it’s much harder to find sponsors as a top 5-10 short-course athlete compared to long course racing… bike sponsors in particular are hard to come by as bike manufacturers often prefer to support road cycling teams over triathletes to market road bikes.

can’t emphasize this enough. for a lot of young athletes especially, ironman is boring as hell. it’s solitary and poorly paid. the racing is a lonely slog and only get to race a few times a year. sponsorship is cobbled together.

meanwhile at short course you’re traveling the world with the same bunch of other young, single athletes (!), have federation support (even just for the little logistical stuff like travel and uniforms, not to mention sports meds, coaching, etc), the racing is shoulder-to-shoulder, fast, and exciting, and between superleague, french league, WTCS, classics, etc, you can race all the time.

waaaaay more fun.

531

I would boil it down to SL gives the fringe world class athletes an professional wage. Those guys who consistently finish 15th-25th and make very very little money. SL allows them a bigger paycheck

That’s the big issue with itu. It’s the life if you are a top 10 type of athlete. But that cliff drops off hard and fast. With every race essentially a major travel for most athletes, if you aren’t among the elite of the elite, you are just putting expenses on a credit card to be dealt with in another life (even if you have funding or travel perks…not everything is covered etc, and when you need to buy X or Y you just do it).

That’s the real issue. And with how deep itu is, finishing 9th vs 13th could be 4s difference.

But in terms of my comment regarding Iden and why he likely likes ITU, because I think he’s on the “taken care of” side of the ledger + fast enough he can make some coin (plus the stress/worry about penny pinching isn’t all that much of an issue for a guy who’s making the money that he makes…I’d be shocked if he doesn’t travel first class, or atleast take advantage of some things that others maybe cant do).

532

Wow Vincent Luis… he did it. I’ve been a huge fan since I watched this documentary on him.

https://youtu.be/tAMjyovd66w

He was struggling with a heart problem so I’ve been wondering. I don’t pay close attention to ITU but I always see two names, Yee and Wilde. Vincent Luis blew Yee out of the water it seems like. He’s back and I hope he does well
From now on.

This vid was the kiss of death for Luis, ever since it got post I’m not sure he won a race (apart from yesterday)

533

But in terms of my comment regarding Iden and why he likely likes ITU, because I think he’s on the “taken care of” side of the ledger + fast enough he can make some coin (plus the stress/worry about penny pinching isn’t all that much of an issue for a guy who’s making the money that he makes…I’d be shocked if he doesn’t travel first class, or atleast take advantage of some things that others maybe cant do).
I would be real surprised if Blummenfelt and Iden don’t step up for the odd middle distance training brick (race) which they can do off SC training. One race in the first 200 days of 2023 will see them both auto-selected for the Collins Cup (with assured payday plus representative kudos). And one of the PTO Tour races offers a great dividend for a few days away. That’d also give them 3 races/scores for the end of year bonus. Harder for other leading MPROs as they haven’t the 2022 PTO points foundation.
I expect Knibb and Duffy to do this too, without affecting their prime focus on Paris.

534

Given the way the Tokyo olympics unfolded and next olys in Paris I expect the french army to raise the bar on their swim. If you add Hauser and Jonny Brownlee you have the perfect storm to gap the norwegians, Yee and Wilde. I think it is going to become in a sort of brownleeish show from the old days…by the way, am I the only one who thinks that some people, despite Paris 24, will move into PTO racing? I think it is a good chunk of money for people that are not at the top and can transfer well into middle distance…

I agree with a lot of what you say but you also have to factor in the motivation of NGBs. They will do anything to maintain funding. I can totally see GB having a domestique for Yee (assuming they qualify 3 men) and I can see NZ doing it for Wilde. France have enough athletes to have several tactics but I can see them having 3 in a front pack and sacrificing one of them to drive the ride for Luis/Bergere.

Women could go the same or it could be a very swim/ride focused selection. GTB, Duffy and Knibb will surely be the driving force for a break away. Whether France chose to go the domestique route for Beaugrand will be interesting. US womens tactics will be interesting assuming they get their selection policy correct and have the right athletes on the start line.

535

This vid was the kiss of death for Luis, ever since it got post I’m not sure he won a race (apart from yesterday)

Damn… I didn’t know that, but I’m glad he won this time. He looks really strong lately. I didn’t see Wilde in the list so I guess he didn’t race. Vincent Luis beat every single fast guy so I hope he does well in the future.

536

Given the way the Tokyo olympics unfolded and next olys in Paris I expect the french army to raise the bar on their swim. If you add Hauser and Jonny Brownlee you have the perfect storm to gap the norwegians, Yee and Wilde. I think it is going to become in a sort of brownleeish show from the old days…by the way, am I the only one who thinks that some people, despite Paris 24, will move into PTO racing? I think it is a good chunk of money for people that are not at the top and can transfer well into middle distance…

I think the swim was faster back then, you had Varga stretching things out, so the Brownlees and Gomez had more of a lead to start with, no one comes close to Ali Brownlee in that front bike pack either, plus with Wilde and Blu in the chase pack there’s more firepower is the way I see it.

I don’t see Bermuda as this ‘blueprint’ on a more conventional course, also dare I say it, Yee is faster than anyone we’ve seen before on the run from a chase pack (when he’s on) Wilde isn’t far behind!

537

I think the swim was faster back then, you had Varga stretching things out, so the Brownlees and Gomez had more of a lead to start with, no one comes close to Ali Brownlee in that front bike pack either, plus with Wilde and Blu in the chase pack there’s more firepower is the way I see it.

Yes the Brownlee’s absolutely weaponized the use of their training partner Richy Varga in a perfectly effective way. While Vincent is certainly an excellent swimmer, he’s not in Varga’s league.

538

Speaking of uber swimmers, what’s Schoeman planning on doing?

539

While Vincent is certainly an excellent swimmer, he’s not in Varga’s league. ///

I dont know how you and a couple others can say this, did you all not see this race, or others Vince has been in? The way I see the “league” they are in, is do they go to the front, hammer off the main group, and stretch out the lead 10 swimmers enough to form a lead bike group? And this was no bush league race either, had plenty of off the front swimmers who were completely stretched just to stay on his feet. And it put tremendous pressure on the main group past the first few, even split them. The top swimmers had to reform and mount an all out charge, just to get back to the feet of the lead 3. Exactly what Varga used to do, only he was not near the powerhouse Luis is in the bike break too.

How is what he did any different than Varga? He is not only in the sam e league, he did “exactly” what Varga would have done in his prime.

Think about it this way, if Luis is not there, the entire race plays out like every other ITU race lately where Yee, Murray, and a dozen others+, all get off the bike together and it is a 10k drag race. And we would all be cooing about how great the new ITU podium guys are. But we dont have to wonder anymore, we had the actual dam race! And it played out exactly like a Brownlee orchestrated one, and some of you just cannot believe your eyes I guess…

I’m not saying every race is going to play out like this, they never have, even in the Brownlee era. Just that a new factor has been added, a guy that can swim like Varga, ride like Ali, and run with anyone in the main field. A guy like that causes a lot of panic in the chase group, and as we saw, the favorites had to go to the front and burn a ton of matches, just to hold the first lap gap. This past couple years that group usually catches, or gets a lot closer, and they dont usually have such a dangerous runner to pull back…

540

Good discussion on ‘The Bermuda Triangle’ on ProTriNews;
https://podcasts.apple.com/...1865?i=1000585413414
from 15:38 for the WTCS.
https://triathlon.org/results/result/2022_world_triathlon_championship_series_bermuda/550764

https://www.tri247.com/...results-report-women
https://www.tri247.com/...2-results-report-men
And the points situation:
https://www.tri247.com/...alysis-men-wilde-yee
Even if Yee wins the final, Wilde would still be the champion if the latter were to take silver. Otherwise Yee first and Wilde third(or +) and Yee wins the series: the points differences between, 2nd/4th, 3rd/5th, 4th/6th, 5th/7th and 6th/8th would also be enough for Yee … but
Bergere could still take the title with a victory in Abu Dhabi and Yee was to finish fourth or lower, and Wilde was to finish sixth or lower.
In the women, whoever of Duffy or Taylor-Brown wins, wins, without the option. Other results are available.