About how much faster does the Hudson River current make you compared to an Olympic that doesn’t have a massive current pushing you along? At the mandatory pre-race meeting they said you can expect to go 5 minutes faster than you normally would. Has that been others’ experience? I don’t really have much of a point of reference since pretty much all of my races to this point have either been sprints or 1/2 IM’s or Olympics that had the swim canceled. My last swim was at EagleMan six weeks ago, did the 1.2 mile swim in a craptastic 39 mins.
I ask because I did the NYC Tri swim in 19 mins, which put me in 69th out of 371 my AG on the swim (M25-29). I ended up getting fifth overall in my AG thanks to being a solid biker and runner. In the last six weeks I got swim lessons and worked a lot on my stroke using TI drills, and also started swimming 4x a week (instead of the previous 3x a week) in a 50M pool. This was my first race with my “new” stroke but I have no idea how to assess my results and know whether or not it represents an actual improvement. In all previous triathlons I have done I have been in the bottom 1/3rd of my AG on the swim, regardless of whether it was a local-schmockel sprint or an M-Dot 1/2 Ironman. So to suddenly be in the top 1/4 seems like a big improvement, but I really have no idea since the NYC Tri swim is such an anomaly. Basically, I am just wondering whether my AG placement is a total fluke or if I can expect to have a similarly “good” swim (in terms of placement) in a race in normal conditions.
Also, I made it a point to swim as far to the outside of the swim lane as possible, where the current is supposedly stronger. I have no idea how true that actually is, but I wonder if that explains my sudden leap in the rankings.
Everyone’s getting the same current (well, there are multiple waves for your AG, but basically the same). When considering other races, your relative placing is likely meaningful. Your time is not.
For your reference, I am a terrible swimmer. I missed NYC this year but did it the previous two years. I was relatively poorly placed there, and in my other races.
The times for the swim at the NYC oly are a joke… top pro’s coming in 12:xx is perhaps about 5 minutes faster than a typical swim w/out the assist from the current. Obviously you still can compare your results against the others you raced against on that day. The 19:xx you did in the Hudson last week probably translates roughly to a 24-25:xx swim in a no-current lake – for example the NJ State race. In this year’s Philly OLY the current seemed to give me a ~3-4 minute assist over the time I normally would expect to put in - but my placing was ‘normal’ relative to where I usually end up against the field.
Now the bottom third of swimmers in an mid-Atlantic OLY typically would be at least a couple/few minutes slower than a 25:xx 1.5k – perhaps north of 28 minutes – so your recent swim focus probably has paid some dividends. A race like NYC would tend to attract a more competitive field than the other ‘local schmokel’ races you may be used to doing, so I’d say feel good with your result and keep the momentum going!
I did the NJ State Triathlon the same day as NYC, and did the wetsuit-legal 1500m in 21:0x. Doug Clark did the Elite Age Group race at NYC, and did the swim in 13:51. By the looks of the results, he was within seconds of the lead group, so if there was any draft to have, Doug had it (and he’s very good at finding feet, like mine :-). At the JerseyMan sprint triathlon in May, with a ~.5mi wetsuit-legal swim, I did 11:13 and Doug did 11:29. We’re usually pretty close (in the water, the rest is another story) over half a dozen different races.
Everyone’s getting the same current (well, there are multiple waves for your AG, but basically the same). When considering other races, your relative placing is likely meaningful. Your time is not.\
This is not really a true statement, the current in a river is similar to the wetsuit advantage. I got to do many down river swims in Germany, and the thing I found interesting is that the slower you are, the more advantage you fot. It didn’t make any logical sense to me at first, but I could not ignore the facts. There was a world class swimmer that did triathlons at the time there, would routinley beat me by a minute in a 1k no curent siwm. I kept up with him. I would also routinley beat Jurgen Zack by a minute in the same 1k swim. In the down river swims, I was with the top guy, and Jurgen was with me. This was a supposed 1500m swim, which took us about 9 or 10 minutes to complete. The theory I came up with was that because of the increased speed from the current, body positions were negated, just like with a wetsuit, and you are pulling on moving water. I think that the better swimmers have a better grip on still water, and thus are faster, but once you rev up that current, it negates most of that advantage. That is what I believe happens, but regardless, the facts are that the slower you are, the more advantage you get in the current. Sucks for the fast guys, but they have been getting screwed ever since that ass^%$# invented the first swimming wetsuit…(-;
Oh ya, I forgot to add that the closer to the center of the river, the stronger the current is. Of course we all knew this back in the day, so we all sprinted for the middle early, and this did not skew the results of our lead group. But something to keep in mind of you are doing river swims. More friction the closer to shore and the shallow the water is, so a slower current…
I have a buddy who swam it. The “Currents Predictor” said the following for 7 a.m. that morning: 2009-07-26 06:53 EDT -2.57 knots Max Ebb, which I think means 2.57 knots downstream (river flow + tide). That would have almost tripled my swim speed.
I don’t know how this affects but
3 years ago same triathlon
my swim was 18min with the current
last year 24 min 2nd half against the current
and this year 17 min far right side from the barge.
Monty,
You’re correct in saying that the current helps slower swimmers more than fast swimmers. However your theory is not the correct explanation as to why that happens.
A swimmer’s speed is essentially their speed plus the speed of the current. Since in this case, a person’s swim rate is slow relative to the current, the final speed (swim speed + current speed) is primarily composed of the current’s speed. This minimizes the difference between each individual’s swimming abilities.
Example. Person A swims 1mph. It takes him 10 hours to swim 10 miles. Person B swims 2mph. It takes him 5 hours to swim 10 miles. MUCH MUCH faster than Person A.
Suppose, to give an extreme example, they are both in currents going 100mph. Their swim speeds become: 101mph and 102mph respectively. What are their swim times for the 10 miles now? 5:56 vs 5:52. Looking at those times, you might think that Person B is only 4 seconds slower than Person A, but in reality without the current, they are at totally different levels.
Hard to compare placement for me as the fields were different, but I did a 17:40 at NYC and 25:40 at an Olympic 3 weeks ago. Part of the 25:40 was the placement of the timing mat - NYC was right out of the water, the other one, the timing mat was right before you entered the transition lot after a run from the water, but I would guess the actual swim was about a minute quicker, so NYC was about 7 minutes faster for me, but then the transition was about 5 minutes slower.
Then how did people swim slower than the current? I belive Slowman recorded the speed it took a bag of Cheetos to float down the swim course. Quite a number of people managed to go slower than the bag of cheetos. This would indicate that hydrodynamic drag plays a role, which makes sense. This would also back-up Monty’s reasoning as to why he kept up with the really fast guys.
Last year I did the swim in 3o minutes (later wave and had no current), this year I did it in 20 minutes with a good current. I’m probably the same quality swimmer I was a year ago. So, basically I think it made me about 33% faster.
I think it’s obvious that not everyone who does a triathlon can “swim” the whole 1.5k. Some tread water, some rest, etc… These people won’t be going faster than the current.
What I, and I think Monty, was referring to were the people who can swim. Of course hydrodynamic drag plays a role, but much less so than plain current physics. Especially at the higher levels.
The bag of cheetos is apocryphal. The claim has been out there for a few years, always at 23 minutes… The fact is, the current is not a constant and if the tides turn, the swim can be significantly slower. This year it wasn’t bad. But there are no bags of snack products floating the swim faster than people.
Monty speaks the truth, getting far from the wall in this race was important.
Last year Ken (the 4th poster) and I were a minute behind Sunday’s Elite AG winner Brian Duffy in a half mile swim. I had my best ever swim at Nationals last year and was 2 minutes back. On Sunday I came of of the “water” (or whatever fluid it was) 8 seconds back. What did I do differently? I swam wide. I followed one other bloke, and he and I swam along the buoys, I could see several blokes swimming 10 or 20 yards to our left (closer to the wall). I’m sure they were all far better swimmers than I.
Maybe this stuff is no longer taught in 9th grade physics, but those lessons are what I recalled when keeping to the right.
I think the 2.57 knots refers to the average speed of the entire river or the speed at some point further out than we were able to swim, it was clearly slower than that where we swam.
It was very inspiring to see so many first timers and also all the para athletes, who were getting great support along 72nd Street.
I think the bike was closer to 26.0 mls if you were in the Yellow Transition, and about 25.7 for Red. This map (link here) suggests that for yellow the run was short.
Finally, I hope Andy Potts has a $$$ sponsor who makes compression socks, because otherwise there can be no excuse for wearing those godforsaken things on the podium.
I believe the swim was about 3 minutes faster with the current. I did it in 19 something I think.Philly I think I did in 22 0r 23 minutes. I should have done 17 or 18 but i cannot swim straight to save my life in open water. I started at the far right ended up near the wall then back out to the right ,near the wall again then straightened out to the dock. Have to say the volunteers there were great getting people out of the water.
I believe the swim was about 3 minutes faster with the current. I did it in 19 something I think.Philly I think I did in 22 0r 23 minutes. I should have done 17 or 18 but i cannot swim straight to save my life in open water. I started at the far right ended up near the wall then back out to the right ,near the wall again then straightened out to the dock. Have to say the volunteers there were great getting people out of the water.
Again, it was like 7 minutes, not about 3 minutes, faster than a non-current-assisted swim.
Again, it was like 7 minutes, not about 3 minutes, faster than a non-current-assisted swim.
To me, it seems more like at least 10 minutes faster. I’m a slow swimmer and the current really helps. Also, contrary to some comments here, I think this NYC race tends to attract more novices and first timers, and therefore if you are experienced, you tend to see better placement in this race than some other ones.