I bought a set of brand new Zipp 909 wheels and some expensive tubular tires from a well-known multisport e-tailer. They offered to glue up the tires. I told them I was particular about that and wanted to be sure they did a very good job as I do time trials and don’t want to compromise performance to a lousy glue job. Well, when the wheels arrived I had a problem with the rear hub right away, so I had to return that wheel. I agreed to pull the tire and re-glue it myself. When I did so, I was shocked. I’m no expert, but it appears to me that this glue job is beyond inferior … it looks downright dangerous. I pulled the front tire, too and it’s equally bad. From all that I read, it’s critical that the edges of the tape and the lips of the rims have adequate glue and no gaps. These tires have huge gaps in the glue on the base tape … and where there is glue, it’s all in globs. It appears that someone squirted glue from a tube onto the rim, made NO attempt to spread it whatsoever, and put the tire on.
Am I right to be shocked by this? Am I right that this appears dangerous? Also, it’s been easy enough to clean the rims (not really, but I’ve done it). But are these tires salvageable? I can’t figure out how I’m gonna get the gobs and globs off and get a good, smooth base tape for the kind of good glue interface I told them I demanded. Should I just demand that the e-tailer replace these? They’re very expensive tires and they haven’t seen the first mile on the pavement.
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I can’t see the picture in your post, but if it was my mistake as a retailer, I would have no problem with you sending it back, starting with new tires from scratch with someone who knows what they are doing, and sending you an entirely new pair. This $#@* ain’t cheap! Good luck.
The link had an extra http in it. I would have them send you fresh rims and tires. Don’t let other people glue your tires. I had a place in San Jose do mine a while back. I was very clear that I wanted Mastik One only. I came in to the shop a little early to see the guy slathering on the Continental (extra 5 watts) glue.
I’m not sure how dangerous it is but a lousy job for sure. I am also pretty particular about bike things and that is pretty bad, especially since you mentioned this too them.
Dangerous? I flatted (Zipp 404 Conti Sprinter tubular) at IM FL last year. Changed it on course and finished - not nervous there because of the super easy, flat and little turns (it was a pre-glued and stretched replacement Sprinter as well). Forgot about the wheel since I hung up the Zipps in November for the winter. Pulled them out in March for an impromptu, early road race (60 hilly, curvy, miles). Finished the race and THEN realized the rear tubular was not glued on AT ALL! Mind you, 45 mph downhills with sharp turns, etc. Man … maybe I was just lucky, but my confidence in tubular tires (and I rode it flat at IM FL for 2 miles twice - long story) was elevated to a very high level that day. Still can’t believe I did that as I usually check over the bike pretty good before a road race, but it happens. Pulled the rear off easily since unglued and very carefully glued it on the next day
Performance loss glued like that? Well, some say so, but … For most it probably doesn’t matter to most. But for you, on the podium cusp, every little bit does, and you spent some pretty serious coin, so …
Initially, I was pretty intimidated at the prospect of gluing on tires. I had a set of tubies for a short while a year ago. I tried a brush for applying the glue. What a freakin’ mess! Somewhere here on Slowtwitch I read where someone suggested using a rubber-gloved finger instead. Wow. All the difference in the world. Couldn’t be easier. Well, I guess maybe the Tufo tape might be easier.
someone suggested using a rubber-gloved finger instead.
You don’t even need that. Just stick your hand (or finger) in a baggie and start spreading. When done, turn it inside-out and toss away w/o a mess. Wait for tackiness, no need to install wet.
I came in to the shop a little early to see the guy slathering on the Continental (extra 5 watts) glue.
-jens
I know you’re a guy who likes to experiment with your own stuff to achieve the best results, so let me suggest a little test. Take a bare carbon rim if you have one laying around, and put some Conti glue on one side, and some Mastik One on the other. Let the rim sit for a week (or four) and observe the glue. Then remember what the material science guy said to you about adhesives and hysteresis losses. I bet you may be suprised.
Also, remember that Howat’s paper just talks about the ‘strength’ of the bond, not hystersis losses–and it could probably be surmised that the sort of failure that the Conti glue/carbon rim combo is prone is indicative of a fast–if weak bond.
I am guessing (though I don’t know) that jens’s 5watt statement is from his own testing, not from any paper. That being said, I have also wondered the same thing re: Howatt’s study. Though, IIRC, it was the Clemente glue that had the unique failure mode – brittle crack – as compared with the others that were all similar. But, I also agree that the strongest bond may not necessarily the fastest. Of course, I don’t know enough about what actually happens in terms of where the hysteresis losses occur and what is actually going on between the tire/glue/rim to know. A strong bond is certainly important, but as I think Ashburn mentioned there is likely a sweet spot with gluing. Too short a cure the bond is still to soft. Too long (like if the tires have been on 3 years or something) and it may become brittle causing it to fail in places. Again, all this crazy science is yet another reason to consider clinchers…
Oh, I hear ya. This is just my public service announcement to tubular folks–I’m done with them.
IIRC, I think Jens’ tests have been on fairly new glue jobs (within a couple of days), and what I’ve experienced is that the Conti glue versus the Mastic is that after several months, the Conti glue has zero tack left, yet the Mastic is still fairly tacky. Of course, as you said, TOO brittle and snap goes the tire.
Then of course, there’s your perfectly glued tubular that goes flat a day before your target event as you’re doing a 10 minute shake-down ride on it “wait, I can’t race, I need a few more months for my tires to off-gas”. No thanks.
someone suggested using a rubber-gloved finger instead.
You don’t even need that. Just stick your hand (or finger) in a baggie and start spreading. When done, turn it inside-out and toss away w/o a mess. Wait for tackiness, no need to install wet.
This just reminds me of the old Mac ads where the guy is trying to give a slide show with his pc laptop and can’t get it to work. people in the audience start yelling things out like “type run/” or “try hitting crtl alt delete”, or “try restarting it.”
then, at the end, you just hear one guy say “buy a mac.”
more practical answer: get them to replace the tires.
more practical answer: get them to replace the tires.
Yes … thanks. You sensed the heart of my question.
I wasn’t trying to run the e-tailer down in posting this. I really wanted to know if the tires needed to be replaced or if there was a reasonable way to remove the glue that was globbed all over them. As nobody addressed the question of glue removal from the tire, I gleaned from that I should just ask for the tires to be replaced … which I’ve now done and which they’ve agreed to do with no hassle whatsoever.
I just didn’t want to be making an unreasonable demand of them. The tubie thing is relatively new to me. As always, I appreciate the help here.
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That glue job is crazy…if I were you I would bring them back and ask them for new tires…period. If they say no then I would rip the basetape off in front of the store manager–both tires–and leave it in a pile on the floor, you then tell them you’ll be taking your business elsewhere. When you go home put your tires in a small box and ship them off to this guy:
He will put new basetape on both tires for about $16, and ship them back to your for free! Well worth it, I just got my tires back after removing the basestape that had tufo tape on it (cringe!!).
ps. I’m not affiliated with this guy at all, but I feel compelled to promote him to help keep guys like this in business!
