New Specialized Transition Bike

I just got this month’s edition of Triathlete Magazine and there it was the '08 Specialized Tri-bike. It does look really nice, but the compact geometry slanting top tube, made me think. It a tri world where aerodynamics is so important, wouldn’t anything but a completely flat tube impact it negatively?

The article mentions McCormack riding it in '08. Not that I don’t trust the wind tunnel results from Specialized and McCormack’s own anecdotal evidence, but it this for real a better geometry or just a cuter bike?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1396547;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
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aerodynamics is so important, wouldn’t anything but a completely flat tube impact it negatively?

In regards to the frame, that is simply a bunch of hooey, and it is a highly effective marketing technique to sell a new, high dollar bike every year. The bike frame is less than 15% of one’s overall drag/aero ratio… Top tube? It doesn’t matter!!

This silly obsession of the latest August 2007 frame tech developments is comical. And, - it’s used as an excuse and a crutch. RIDE YOUR BIKE… Other than your comfort and aero position that you get on any of the top frames, of similar weight, - there’s ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE! CSC proved that in the tour. There’s no difference between the brand new carbon fiber TT Cervelo bike and the old Colnago TT bike!!

There is a difference in your body position, your helmet, and what you are wearing…

Forget about the bike, - buy yourself a nice helmet instead; and tape up the air vents…

“made me think”

Please stop that. You’re disrupting the intellectual process around here.

…There’s no difference between the brand new carbon fiber TT Cervelo bike and the old Colnago TT bike!! …

Hmmm…I guess that depends on your definition of “no”, huh?

"but the compact geometry slanting top tube, made me think. It a tri world where aerodynamics is so important, wouldn’t anything but a completely flat tube impact it negatively? "

Pictures do not do the top tube justice. It is flat, like a “blade”.

Not unless your incapable of understanding obvious…

Not unless your incapable of understanding obvious…

So…you’re telling us that all things being equal (same equipment, same rider, same position, etc), that a given rider will be no faster on a P3C than on an old Colnago TT frame?

zackly
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zackly

Well…you better have some numbers to back that claim up, because I’ve got numbers that say you’re wrong, and by a pretty healthy margin over “no” :wink:
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The only numbers worth squat are the wind tunnel drag numbers. And those numbers, bike alone, are only 15% of the overall drag: when taking into account rider and bike and clothing.

In essence, - not much from not much leaves not much. Doubtless, that 15 pound Cervelo frame will do slightly better in wind tunnel tests than that 15 pound Colnago, - but given that, probable, 2% drag improvement due to the frame: there’s no real world rider test or tester that’ll be able to discern a difference. Aero wheels will make a bigger difference than aero frames.

There was an interesting real world study conducted by Bicycle Quarterly, they found that “in the real world” low pressure, big old fat randonneur tires were faster than high pressure modern racing tires.

Once you put a rider on a bike on a course, you lose numbers real fast and take our discussion, largely, outside measurably repeatable science. The difference being the way you attack a turn or two, or get out of aero to scratch your forehead…too many variables. Honest tests will reveal inconclusive results.

Now, - those little wee wind tunnel numbers help the Cervelo marketing machine sell lots of bikes to slowtwitchers looking to get out from the back of the pack. My take is that they need to get out on their bikes…

The only numbers worth squat are the wind tunnel drag numbers. And those numbers, bike alone, are only 15% of the overall drag: when taking into account rider and bike and clothing.

In essence, - not much from not much leaves not much. Doubtless, that 15 pound Cervelo frame will do slightly better in wind tunnel tests than that 15 pound Colnago, - but given that, probable, 2% drag improvement due to the frame: there’s no real world rider test or tester that’ll be able to discern a difference.

Yes, but as the rider position and clothing are optimized, the % of the overall drag attributed to the frame will be higher. On top of that, for a “good” position, I think your 15% estimate is too low. For example, there’s a table in the Burke book “High-Tech Cycling” that shows the drag for a Hooker Elite w/disk and aero front wheel to be 1.38 lbs at 30 mph. With a rider on board (in an aero position), it’s 6.66 lbs. That means the frame is 20% of the aero drag in that case. According to the wind tunnel numbers revealed by Dr. Coggan recently, the P3C is as low, or lower drag than the Hooker.

BTW, the drag on the Hooker is up to 0.5 lbs lower drag than some of the other more “conventional” frames listed. 0.5 lbs of drag equates to ~2.5seconds per kilometer. I don’t know about you, but that’s pretty significant to me.

0.5 lbs out of ~7 lbs is ~7% reduction in drag. You may not “sense” it while you’re riding, but the stopwatch won’t lie.

Aero wheels will make a bigger difference than aero frames.

Nobody said any different…we’re talking frames here.

There was an interesting real world study conducted by Bicycle Quarterly, they found that “in the real world” low pressure, big old fat randonneur tires were faster than high pressure modern racing tires.

Yep…they’re faster when you’re rolling down a soapbox derby hill at only 13 mph :wink: You might want to take a close look at that BQ test again…there’s lots of “room for error” in their test technique. I won’t go into it here, but I wouldn’t take any more than just “broad brush” generalizations from their results.

Once you put a rider on a bike on a course, you lose numbers real fast and take our discussion, largely, outside measurably repeatable science. The difference being the way you attack a turn or two, or get out of aero to scratch your forehead…too many variables. Honest tests will reveal inconclusive results.

But, that’s not what we’re comparing. I said “for all things being equal”. That means the hypothetical case that you could replace one frame for the other and re-run exactly the same. The more aerodynamic frame will ALWAYS be faster.

Now, - those little wee wind tunnel numbers help the Cervelo marketing machine sell lots of bikes to slowtwitchers looking to get out from the back of the pack. My take is that they need to get out on their bikes…

Hmm…“wee little numbers”…heck, at least we’re making progress…it used to be “no difference”, right? :wink:

I don’t know, 2.5 seconds per kilometer comes out to be 1:40 over 40K…that doesn’t sound too “wee” to me.

I agree that if you’ve got a pinto engine, having a ferrari chassis isn’t going to instantly make you FAST. However, you’ll be faster than if you had a pinto chassis, though. And if you’ve got a ferrari engine (or even a well-built small block chevy) you’ll be even faster yet.

Here’s what it comes down to: For a given fitness level, speed in a TT or tri leg comes down to a BUNCH of little details. Obviously certain details give you more “bang for the buck”, but to state that frames make “no difference” is pure bull.

we have a winner! :slight_smile:

mark…by slowtwitch rules… toenail is allowed to come back with a few replys and get out of the deep hole he dig himself in… we cant officialy declare tom as the winner. But i m already printing hats and shirts with tom s name as the winner!!!

“On top of that, for a “good” position, I think your 15% estimate is too low. For example, there’s a table in the Burke book “High-Tech Cycling” that shows the drag for a Hooker Elite w/disk and aero front wheel to be 1.38 lbs at 30 mph. With a rider on board (in an aero position), it’s 6.66 lbs. That means the frame is 20% of the aero drag in that case.”

No, it doesn’t. It means the bike is 20% of the drag, not just the frame. But that number is highly suspect because the rider affects the aerodynamics of the riderless bike, no? I imagine the least aerodynamic part of that hooker was the saddle - put a rider on it and all of a sudden the frontal area of that saddle changes from something the size of a Big Mac to something the size of a golf ball or smaller. I think the OP’s number of 15% is a bit closer to reality than your 20% number, and I guess that it is probably below 15% once a rider is involved. Just a guess, though. Anyone have data on that?

“On top of that, for a “good” position, I think your 15% estimate is too low. For example, there’s a table in the Burke book “High-Tech Cycling” that shows the drag for a Hooker Elite w/disk and aero front wheel to be 1.38 lbs at 30 mph. With a rider on board (in an aero position), it’s 6.66 lbs. That means the frame is 20% of the aero drag in that case.”

No, it doesn’t. It means the bike is 20% of the drag, not just the frame. But that number is highly suspect because the rider affects the aerodynamics of the riderless bike, no? I imagine the least aerodynamic part of that hooker was the saddle - put a rider on it and all of a sudden the frontal area of that saddle changes from something the size of a Big Mac to something the size of a golf ball or smaller. I think the OP’s number of 15% is a bit closer to reality than your 20% number, and I guess that it is probably below 15% once a rider is involved. Just a guess, though. Anyone have data on that?

True…and thank you for correcting me on the total bike vs. frame detail.

But, getting back to the estimate of % of the total drag, how about the fact that I’ve seen total drag numbers for riders on P3C type frames that are more like 4 to 4.5 lbs of drag instead of the 6.7 lbs of the rider plus Hooker shown above (advances in positioning, clothing, etc.) Isn’t the drag of the frame going to be an even higher % of the total in those cases?

In the end, whatever the percentage is of the total drag that the frame represents doesn’t really matter. What matters is the absolute value of the reduction in drag. That’s where the “up to 0.5 lbs” less drag I mentioned above comes into play. That was a comparison between bikes with equivalent wheels and also presumably saddles that didn’t vary greatly :wink: Since the only difference was the frames, that kind of limits where the gain is attributed…

The only numbers worth squat are the wind tunnel drag numbers.

Over the years I’ve seen the results of numerous wind tunnel tests comparing non-aero and aero frames with a rider aboard. They all show the same thing: a well-designed aerodynamic frame provides significant benefits (sometimes as much or more than a set of aero wheels).

Or to put it another way: Mr. In-grown, you’re flat-out wrong.

JC!

Tom pointed out numerous objective positions and cited numbers. All I heard from the opponent was simple “alluding to” statements.

Tom wins! :slight_smile:

Time to jump in!

I actually agree somewhat with toenail. What he’s been citing about studies in MIT are quite correct: we do fine that frames don’t play a very important role in terms of aerodynamics apart from getting you to fit well on the bike.

Drag numbers of about 1.3-1.4 are currently typical of the top end aero bikes. The DA, P3C, Trek and Specialized all test very close to each other in about that range (we even tested the latter 3 with identical setups).

Once we put a rider on, all the differences practically vanished. Playing around with rider positioning on an aero bike, we can drop a person (and his bike) down from 6 pounds of drag to 5 pounds of drag pretty easily; Me and Mark register about 4.5 pounds of drag, and we both ride conventional P3s.

However, you can’t say that because the bike with rider registers 4.5 pounds of drag, the bike registers about 1.5 pounds of drag, the bike takes up 1/3 of the total drag. It doesn’t add up. The rider hides himself between a few parts of the bike, but a lot of the bike’s rear is effectively faired by the rider. Most of the aero differences between bikes on the rear 2/3rds of the bike become negated once you put a rider on, including stuff like disc wheels and rear hydration systems.

The most dramatic difference we registered was when we tested a saddle mounted hydration system. Without the rider, it contributed to an additional 0.2lbs of drag (out of 1.6+ lbs, quite a significant contribution). However, put the rider on, and that difference completely disappeared.

Between tests of riders on aero and non-aero frames: how much has really been done to control the positioning of the rider? Identical rider? Identical position? Identical equipment?

tests of riders on aero and non-aero frames: how much has really been done to control the positioning of the rider? Identical rider? Identical position? Identical equipment?
Ah-yup (perhaps it’s time for you to dig through, e.g., old issues of Cycling Science to truly appreciate what has been done before).