It’s a point to point swim in The Red River which runs through Shreveport/Bossier City. Does anyone know if it’ll be "downstream or upstream?
downstream swim … i’ve got some friends headed there!
Any idea what is going to be like swimming in the Red River?
Does it have much of a current? I am guessing it won’t be clear water!!!
downstream swim
Am I the only one who thinks that’s unbelievably lame, especially for Nationals?
No, you are not the only one. The current in the Red River at that point is supposed to be about 0.33 mile/hour. With 1760 yards in a mile, that means the current will give a swimmer (or a log) a boost of about 200 yards in 20 minutes and 250 yards in 25 minutes. That’s the equivalent of 3-4 minutes (or more) of advantage for the weaker swimmers, and the equivalent penalty for the stronger ones.
I raised this issue with slowman, our own personal board member, and he assured me that the course would be lengthened appropriately. But it appears as if that order/wish/hope has not made it through to the national office, not to mention General Burke and his crew; information sent by e-mail to all pre-registered athletes just yesterday says the swim course is 1500 meters downstream.
As I understand it, the course chosen will require athletes to walk 1500 meters upstream. That’s a logistical nightmare for people who (a) don’t like to walk long distances in their bare feet and/or (b) those who need eyeglasses to find the end of their noses. IMHO, this is but another example of how the federation has lost its way. Age group nationals should be designed for the maximum enjoyment of the participants; instead, the federation seems to see only the extra dollar and appears entirely tone deaf.
Yeah, but think of all the slower swimmers who’ll be able to brag about setting a PR on the swim leg :-))
Seriously, I’ve never done Nationals in over 10 years in sport, but that’s got to be a major letdown for the athletes that have spent the time and money to get their swimming to a point that’s pleasing to them.
Kahuna
Any idea what is going to be like swimming in the Red River?
Does it have much of a current? I am guessing it won’t be clear water!!!
Age group nationals should be designed for the maximum enjoyment of the participants
If that’s true, then they have no business having the race in Shreveport again. After last year and the ‘swim in a swamp’, no way I’m going back, and I know I’m not the only one.
CdA was a great venue…complete opposite of what I found in Shreveport. Nothing against the city itself, but the race venue was a disgrace.
G
We had a long thread on this subject just after last year’s nationals and nearly everyone (including me) agreed with you. But “shortening” the swim course takes things to a new low - not only do we get an ugly venue in a city without airline service that can reliably handle your bike, now we get an unfair race course to boot. Where are all the board members who campaigned as a “I’m-for-the-age-grouper” kind of person when you really need them?
I don’t know that I would hold the new board to account for this year’s Nationals. Didn’t all this have to be finalized, and put into play, long before the actual race?
As an airline manager, I can tell you that the place is very difficult to get to on a mainline (i.e. non-regional small jet or larger prop job) aircraft. Let alone what’ll be done to bikes, if they’re even allowed to be checked as baggage on a regional aircraft (prop or jet).
If you can, fly into a large city serviced by a major airline, discount or legacy…doesn’t matter, and rent a car and drive to the city (if you’ve got the time and the inclination).
Kahuna
For those who can’t walk 1500 meters I understand there will be a shuttle. For me I’m taking an old pair of shoes and hoofing it.
As for making the swim course longer to make up for the current that’s silly. Would they consider making the bike or run course longer if it were point to point downhill or downwind? Of course not.
Modifying the swim course distance opens up a huge can of worms. Too many races are supposed to be a given distance and aren’t because the races directors didn’t get it right. No way should directors be allowed to start making subjective “adjustments” to distances to compensate for current, hills or wind conditions. If this is to be the premiere USAT event then get the distances right! A 1500 meter swim followed by a 40K bike and then a 10K run. Everybody then does the course and yes, it might favor some athletes over others – but then every race does. A hilly course might favor a climber but a flat course may favor a TT’er.
I lived in Shreveport for a bunch of years. The Red river is in a word red. It is not clear but has to be an improvement from the mudhole last year. It will stain your uniform so don’t wear you pretty one.
I have swam USTS in the Detroit river(downstream). Clear Lake Houston (1.5k pros swam in 40 min plus current), Ironman Hawaii (current), Honolulu Tinman course (ocean current) so don’t tell me current shouldn’t be a factor in rasing. Quit whining and swim toughguys. Life ain’t always fair.
As far as the rest of the town there are lots of places to eat if you look in the phone book. Yea the airport is a shitty deal. When we go back we fly into Dallas and drive. 21/2 hr or so. It will probably be freaking hot too.
It never fails that people whine about race venues. If ya don’t like it don’t go or get on the Board and do something about it. I live on a rock in the middle of the ocean and it costs a grand every time I go to a race on the mainland (or more). That is what you pay for living here. G
Actually, every one of the races you cite had an out-and-back or loop swim course - which means you get the benefit of the current in one direction and the burden in the other. A more appropriate example would have been the first world championship, 1989 in Avignon. We swam downstream in the Rhone, and the course was lengthened to 1800 meters in order to allow for the current. Interestingly enough, it seemed to work: swim splits were very close, across the board, to what they would have been in the typical race.
Another example of the problem was exhibited by the old double iron triathlon in Huntsville, Alabama. The swim was downstream - but if the race was held when the Corps of Engineers was releasing extra water from the upstream dam, the times were cut in half. Does anyone here remember J. George Isom, who used to put on many of the races in Houston and Dallas? George was the epitome of a SLOW swimmer, and was often life and death to make the cut-off at IM Kona. His swim splits at double iron was usually around four hours - but one year, when the Corps was releasing extra water from the dam, he swam (floated) it in just under two hours.
No one has ever suggested “adjustments” in courses with out-and-back or loop legs. But with the exception of Hilton Head 1987, we’ve never had a point-to-point swim course - and we only had it there because the rip tide in the aftermath of a storm was so freakin’ dangerous that the damage to the competitive balance was definitely the lesser of two evils.
The problem with the new swim course in Shreveport is that it will, unless adjusted, substantially alter the ordinary balance between the three disciplines. Let me ask you this: If the swim was in a lake near the top of Pikes Peak, and then the very accurately measured 40K bike course was a screaming descent from 11,000 feet above sealevel to 5,000, would that be a fair course? Training and power would be irrelevant - untrained cyclists can tuck and coast every bit as well as the very fit. Shreveport is supposed to be a national championship for the sport of triathlon. Duathlon nationals were in Alpharetta, Georgia in August.
I note you talked about a USTS race in Detroit. There were only two USTS Detroit races: in 1985, we swam in Pontiac Lake (where they had to mow the weeds in order to create a swim course) and in 1986 the race was centered on Belle Isle. The latter swim was indeed in the Detroit River, but it was definitely a loop course (a long-thin triangle, to be precise). We started at the marina, swam downstream on the first leg, then left (cross-current) towards shore, and then back upstream to the start.
About a month ago when it was first announced ,I called the usat office and apprised them of the problems with a down river swim. They told me that they passed it along, and it would be adjusted. Of course I don’t believe that, and I have to agree whole heartly with Lew on this one.
I swam in many down river swims in Germany when racing on a pro team there, and I can tell you not only do you get out of the water much faster, but there is some dynamic that gives the crappier swimmers a huge advantage. It basically works like the wetsuit factor, but only more so. The faster the water moves, the more bunched up the swim will be. Of course it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that this will make the marshalling on the bike even harder. The pack riding will be monstrous…
All you slow swimmers out there who are applauding the set 1500 meters, while we swim downstream, need to stop trying to set policy just so YOU can have a better swim. Lew is right, if the bike were a 40k downhill, the cyclists would be screaming. If you ran on a airport flat escalator, then it wouldn’t be a true 10k. SO the right thing to do is to make the swim course swim out a 1500m time. That is the right thing to do. It’s not hard to do, and you back of the packers, are still going to get the current advantage of hanging on to swimmers that are much faster than you. This is the nationals of TRIATHLON, not a shower, bike, run…
If we could only elect more race directors to the Board of USTA we would never have this problem. 
Race directors will always do what’s best for the membership…
-Robert
We did elect some race directors this last election, and I would bet that this kind of thing won’t happen in the future. As stated earlier this nationals was all on the last board, and the only one to change anything now would be the race director…
I’ll be hypoxic for the duration…
-Robert